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simon
Posted - 2007/4/2 ¤U¤È 05:07:10
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¥H¤U¥u¬O°²³]©Êªº¬G¨Æ¡A¦ý²{¹ê¤¤Ãþ¦ü¨Æ±¡¤£®Éµo¥Í¡C
¾Çµ£¥Ò©M¾Çµ£¤A¬O°·±d§Ö¼Öªº«Ä¤l¡A¥L̤W¦P¤@©Ò¾Ç®Õ¡C¥L̬O¾F©~¡A¦³¨â±ø¸ô¡]A ¸ô©M B ¸ô¡^³£¥i¨ì¹F¾Ç®Õ¡A¶ZÂ÷¡B·´º¡B¦w¥þ©Ê³£®t¤£¦h¡F¥L̨S¦³¬ù©w¡A¨S¦³²ßºD¡A¥u¬OÀH·N¨«¨ä¤¤¤@±ø¡C
³o¤Ñ¡A¾Çµ£¥Ò¿ï A ¸ô¡A¾Çµ£¤A¿ï B ¸ô¤W¾Ç¡C³~¤¤¡A¾Çµ£¥Ò³Q°ªªÅÂYª«¥´¤¤¡A·í³õ¦º¥h¡Cĵ¤è¬d¥X¬O¤@Ó¸Ëפu¤H¤£¤p¤ß±¼¤U¤@¶ô¿jÀY¡C¾Çµ£¤A«h¥¦w¥h¨ì¾Ç®Õ¡C
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Musigny
Posted - 2007/4/2 ¤U¤È 09:02:17
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Try <When Bad Things Happen to Good People> by Harold Kushner.
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simon
Posted - 2007/4/3 ¤W¤È 12:14:59
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^¤å²`¤£²`¡H¤Ó²`§Ú¬Ý¤£À´¡C
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SK2
Posted - 2007/4/3 ¤W¤È 01:13:54
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Musigny : §Ú¤£¦h¤[«e¤]¬Ý¤F³o®Ñªº¤¤¤åª©¡A¡u·í¦n¤H¹J¤WÃa¨Æ¡v¡A¬OªB¤Íµ¹ªº¡A¦ý¤£ª¾¦b¨ºùضR±o¨ì¡H
¦¹®Ñ§@ªÌ¬OµS¤Ó±Ð«ßªk±Ð®v¡A¥ç§Y©Ô¤ñ¡A¦Û¤v±¹ï³à¤l¤§µh¡A¤Ï«ä«H¥õ¤Ñ¥D¥þ¯àvs¤½¸qvs¦n¤H¨üWªº°ÝÃD...
Simon : ¥H«e¦¹Äæ´¿§@Ãþ¦¹°Q½×¡G¤Ñ¥D¥þª¾vs¤H¤U¦aº»¡H¦¹®Ñ§@ªÌªº«ä¸ô©M§Aªº·Qªk¥i¯à¤Q¤À¬Ûªñ¡I
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SK2
Posted - 2007/4/3 ¤W¤È 01:19:39
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¤×¨ä¬O¦³Ãö¦ÛµMªk«h¡A(¦pSimon¨Ò¤l¤¤¿jÀY±¼¤U)¡A§@ªÌ¦³¿W¯S©M¥þ±ªº¨£¸Ñ¡C
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simon
Posted - 2007/4/3 ¤W¤È 11:15:15
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SK2,
ì¨Ó¦³¤¤Ä¶¥»¡A¨º¹ï§Ú¨Ó»¡¬O¸û®e©ö¤F¡C
¥i¦b¦¹³sµ²§ä¨ì¡Ghttp://www.hkbookcity.com/showbook2.php?serial_no=90401
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edward
Posted - 2007/4/3 ¤U¤È 08:02:32
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Y½×«H¥õÆ[¡A§Y¨Ï¬O¾Çµ£¤A¡]¦Ó«D¨Ò¤l¤¤ªº¾Çµ£¥Ò¡^¤£©¯¦º¥h¡A«h¨ä®aªø¥ç¦³²z¥Ñ·PÁ¯«¡C
«H¥õµ¹§Ú̪º¨ä¤¤¤@Ó¬D¾Ô¡A´N¬O©Ó»{©Ò¦³µo¥Íªº¨Æ±¡¡A¤£½×º×ºÖ¡A§¡¬O¦b¤Ñ¥Dªºã³\¤Î¦w±Æ¤U±o¨ì¹ê²{¡C¦Ó¤£½×§Ú¦¹¨èªº¥DÆ[·P¨ü¦p¦ó¡A¤´n«O«ùÆg¬ü©M¹|Áªº¤ß±¡¡A¥B¤´¬Û«H³o¦ì¤Ñ¥D¬O¡u·O·R¡vªº¡C
·í§ÚÌ°Ñ»P¬Y¦Ü¿Ë¦n¤Íªº°l«äÀ±¼»®É¡A¯à¯u¥¿¦a±q¤ß¤¤±N¦¹Â§»öºÙ¬°¡u¬°¬Y¬Yªº¥h¥@¦Ó¡y·P®¦¡z¡v¶Ü¡H
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SK2
Posted - 2007/4/4 ¤W¤È 01:42:08
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§Ô¤£¦íÁ¿¤Ö¤ÖKushnerªº¬Ýªk¡G§@ªÌ¨S¦³¤F§Ú̱иq¤Wªº³W¡A§ó¦n¸ÑÄÀ¤£©¯¨Æ¥óµo¥Í©M¤Ñ¥Dªº¤¯·O©M¤½¸q¨S¦³¥Ù¬Þ¡C
§@ªÌ¥H¸g¨åªº¬ù§B¬G¨Æ¡A´£¥X¤T¶µ©RÃD¡G
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¤G¡G¤Ñ¥D¬O¤½¸qªº¡A½à¸q¤H¡A»@´c¤H¡F
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Kushner¥H¦Û¤v(³à¤l)ªº¤£©¯¡A¤S²`«H¤Ñ¥Dªº¤¯·O¤½¸q¡AµL¶d¦~¥®ªº¨à¤l¤£¥i¯à¥Ç¤FP¦ºªº¸o¡A©Ò¥H¦³°ÝÃDªº¥u¯à¬O²Ä¤@¶µ¡G¤£¤@©w¤Z¨Æ³£¬O¤Ñ¥Dªº¦®·N¡I¥Lªºargument¦³»¡ªA¤O¡A¥H·sªº¨¤«×¬Ý¤Ñ¥Dªº¯à¤O¡A¦Ó¤S¤£¥¢°ª¶Qªº©v±Ð±¡¾Þ¡C¹ï©ó¤£©¯¨Æ±¡ªºµo¥Í¡A¥¿¦]¬°¤Ñ¥D¤£¬OЪº¦®·N¡A§ó¦n»¡©ú¤Ñ¥Dªº¤¯·O¡I
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è°¥J
Posted - 2007/4/4 ¤W¤È 09:18:16
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·R¼wµØ¥S:
¦³"²z¥Ñ·P®¦"©M¦³"¯à¤O·P®¦"¬O¦³ÂI¤À§Oªº.
¤j³¡¥÷±¡ªp¤U,§Ú·|¬°¥H¥h¥@ªÌªº"´¿¸g¦b¥Í"¦Ó·P®¦,n¤H±q¤ß¸Ì·P®¦¤@Ó¤Hªº"¥h¥@"¬O¤ñ¸û§xÃøªº.
±N©Ò¦³¨ÆÂk¯Ç©ó"¤Ñ¥Dªº¦w±Æ"¨Ï¤H®e©ö¦³"±J©R½×"ªºÂÕ»~,¦Ó¥B¤]«d®z¤F¤Hªº¦Û¥Ñªº¯S½è.
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simon
Posted - 2007/4/4 ¤U¤È 12:08:44
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è°¥J¡G
±J©R½×¬O§_ÂÕ»~¡A¥H©¹§Ú¤Q¤ÀªÖ©w¨º¬OÂÕ»~¡Aº¥º¥¡A§Ú¤S¤£¨º»òªÖ©w¤F¡C
¥H¾Çµ£¥Ò§@¨Ò¤l¡A§A¥i¥H»¡¡A¨º¤Ñ¥L´zA ¸ô¡A¬O¥Lªº¦Û¥Ñ·N§Ó¡C
¦ý¬O¤Ñ¥D¦b³Ð¥@®É¡AÍ¢ªº³Ð¥@¼Ò¦¡¥¿¬Oµ¹¤©¾Çµ£¥Ò¥h¡u¦Û¥Ñ¿ï¾Ü¡v¡A¦Ó¤Ñ¥D¬O¦P®Éª¾¹D¾Çµ£¥Ò¥²·|¦b¨º¤Ñ´z A ¸ôªº¡C¤Ñ¥Dª¾¹D¤F³o¨Ç¡A¤´¬OÄ~Äò¥HÍ¢ªº³Ð¥@¼Ò¦¡¥h³y³oÓ¥@¬É©M¾Çµ£¥Ò¡C
¾Çµ£¥Òªº¦º¤`¡Aºâ¤£ºâ¬O¦¦µù©w¡H¾Çµ£¥Ò¦³¯à¤O°kÁפѥD¦b³Ð¥@®É¤w¹wª¾ªºµ²ªG¶Ü¡H
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edward
Posted - 2007/4/15 ¤U¤È 12:44:42
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è°¥J¥S¡G
¤Ñ¥Dªº¦w±Æ»P¤Hªº¦Û¥Ñ¡A¨Ã¤£©èIJ¡C
¥@¶¡¤w¦¨¤§¨Æª«¡A¨S¦³¤@¥ó¤£¬O¦bÍ¢ªº´xºÞ¤§¤Uµo¥Íªº¡C
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SK2
Posted - 2007/4/16 ¤W¤È 12:48:43
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´N¬O¤@¥y¡G¡u¤Ñ¥Dªº¦w±Æ¡v¡A«P¨ÏKushner©Ô¤ñ¤Ï«ä«H¥õ¦Ó¼g¤F³o®Ñ¡C¤H¾D³{¤£©¯¥i¥H¬O¦ÛµM«ß¹B¦æªºµ²ªG¡A¦p®ü¼S¡A¤£¯A¤Î¤Ñ¥Dªº¤½¸q......
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simon
Posted - 2007/4/16 ¤W¤È 11:04:51
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SK2,
µ£¥Ò¨º¤Ñ¥L´zA ¸ô¡A¬O§_¤]¬O¦ÛµM«ß¡H
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è°¥J
Posted - 2007/4/16 ¤U¤È 12:04:01
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·R¼wµØ¥S:
¨º¥¼¦¨¤§¨Æ/ª«,¤S¬O§_¦b¤Ñ¥Dªº´xºÞ¤§¤Uµo¥Í?
§Ú·Q"©Ò¦³³£¤w¦w±Æ©w"©M"¦Û¥Ñ¿ï¾Ü"¤§¶¡,¦³¨ä®Ú¥»ªº§xÃø¦s¦bªº.§Ú¬Û«H¦p§Ú¨S°O¿ù,±Ð·|¬O¤Ï¹ï±J©R½×ªº,¹ï¶Ü?
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SK2
Posted - 2007/4/16 ¤U¤È 07:14:58
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¾Çµ£¥Ò³Q°ªªÅÂYª«¥´¤¤¡A·í³õ¦º¥h¡Cĵ¤è¬d¥X¬O¤@Ó¸Ëפu¤H¤£¤p¤ß±¼¤U¤@¶ô¿jÀY¡C
Kushner·|»{¬°³Q°ªªÅÂYª«¥´¤¤¦º¥h¬O¦º©ó·N¥~¡A¤H¤£¯àÀH«K´Nºâ¤W¯«ªºÀY¤W¡A¦]¬°¥ô¦ó¤H¦b¨º®É¨º¨è¨º³B³£·|¾D¦¹¤£©¯¡A¬O¦ÛµM«ß(¿jÀY¤U¼Z)ªºµ²ªG¡A¤£¯A¤Î¦¹¦ºªÌ¬O§_¸q¤H¡A¤]¤£¯A¤Î¯«ªº¦w±Æ¡C
·íµM¡An¾Çµ£¥Ò(¦¹¤H)³Q°ªªÅÂYª«¥´¤¤¡A¬O¤@Ó¸Ëפu¤H(¦¹¤H)(¦]¬°)¤£¤p¤ß±¼¤U¤@¶ô(¦¹¶ô)¿jÀY¦Ó³à©R¡C¥i¯à¦³infiniteªº¦]¯À²Õ¦¨¡G¬°¦ó¬O¨º¤u¤H¡A¤S襩¥L¤£¤p¤ß¡A¬°¦ó¿jÀY©ñ¦b¨º³B¡H¬O½Öªº®a¦b¸ËסH....
The point is : Kushner¥H¬°·í¥Ln¥H©Ô¤ñªº¨¥÷¥h¦w¼¢¾Çµ£¥Òªº®a¤H¡A¥L¨S¿ìªk»¡¥X¡G¡u³o¬O¯«ªº¦w±Æ...¤ª¤ª¡v
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simon
Posted - 2007/4/17 ¤W¤È 12:19:51
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SK2¡A
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SK2
Posted - 2007/4/17 ¤W¤È 12:22:05
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§A¸Ü©O¡H§A¤ß¥Ø¤¤¡u¯«ªº¦w±Æ¡v«ç¼Ë¶i¦æªº©O¡H¬O§_¦p¦b¦º¤`µ§°O¤W¼g¤U¾Çµ£¥Òªº¦º¤`®É¶¡©M¦º¦]¤@¯ë?
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simon
Posted - 2007/4/17 ¤W¤È 12:49:07
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§Ú¨S¦³¬Ý¹L¡m¦º¤`µ§°O¡n¡C
¦pªG¯«¬O¥þª¾¡A¨º»ò¯«½T¬O¦b³Ð¥@®É¡A¤w¹wª¾¾Çµ£¥Ò·|¦b¬Æ»ò®ÉÔ¦º©M«ç¼Ë¦º¡C
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SK2
Posted - 2007/4/17 ¤W¤È 12:57:57
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§Aªº¹wª¾¬O§_´Nµ¥©ó¦w±Æ¡H¥i§_Á¿¦h¤@ÂI¡H
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simon
Posted - 2007/4/17 ¤U¤È 12:44:57
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¹ï©ó¤H¡A¹wª¾©M¦w±Æ¤£¤@©w¬Û¦P¡C¤ñ¤è»¡¡A§Ú¹wª¾¸ô¤H¥Ò±N¨Ó·|¦º¡]ÁöµM·Ç½T®É¶¡¤£ª¾¹D¡^¡A¦ý§Ú¨S¦³¡u¦w±Æ¡v¸ô¤H¥Òªº¦º¤`¡C
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¦n¤F¡A¾Çµ£¥Ò¦b¤G¹s¹s¤C¦~¤T¤ë¤@¤é³Q°ªªÅÂYª«¥´¤¤³à¥Í¡A¯«¦¦b³Ð¥@®É¡A¤w¹wª¾³o¥ó¨Æ¡A¦ý¯«¤´nÄ~Äò¥H¬J©w¼Ò¦¡³Ð¥@¡A¦Ó¤£±Ä¥Î¨ä¥L¼Ò¦¡³Ð¥@¡]¨Ò¦p¤£³y¨ºÓ²¨©¿ªº¤u¤H¥X¨Ó¡^¡A§A»¡¾Çµ£¥Òªº¦º¤`¡A¬O¤£¬O¯«¡u¦w±Æ¡v©O¡H
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SK2
Posted - 2007/4/17 ¤U¤È 07:47:13
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¾Çµ£¥Ò³Q°ªªÅÂYª«¥´¤¤³à¥Í¡A¦Ó¯«¹wª¾¦¹¨Æ¡A¤´nÄ~Äò¥H¬J©w¼Ò¦¡³Ð¥@¡A¦Ó¤£±Ä¥Î¨ä¥L¼Ò¦¡³Ð¥@¡]¨Ò¦p¤£³y¨ºÓ²¨©¿ªº¤u¤H¥X¨Ó¡^...§A»¡¾Çµ£¥Òªº¦º¤`¡A¬O¤£¬O¯«¡u¦w±Æ¡v©O¡H
¾ÚKushnerªº¨£¸Ñ¡A¯«³]p¤Fª«¥ó±q°ª³B¤U¼Zªº¦ÛµM«ß¡A¨ä¥L¥u¯à¬O°¸µM¡C
ªp¥B¡A»¡¨ì¡u¦w±Æ¡v¡A¥Ñ¬J©w¼Ò¦¡³Ð¥@¦Ü¾Çµ£¥Òªº¦º¤`¡A¨ä¤¤¤Ó¦h¤Ó¦h¼Æ¤§¤£ºÉªº¡u¦w±Æ¡v¡A¦pªG§Aı±o¦³·N«äªº¸Ü¡A¤£§«·Q·Q¬°¦ó¯«¦w±Æ¤F¨ºÓ¤£¤p¤ßªº¤u¤H¡A¬°¦ó¯«¦w±Æ¤F¨º¤j·~¥D¥ß®×ªk¹Î³q¹L¤j·HºûסA¬°¦ó¯«¦w±Æ¬Y«Î¦t³Bªº©xûµo¥O¸Ó¤j·Hºû×......§A»¡¬O§_©Ò¦³¤H³£°Ñ»P¦w±Æ¾Çµ£¥Òªº¦º¤`¡H
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simon
Posted - 2007/4/17 ¤U¤È 09:28:59
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SK2¡A
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SK2
Posted - 2007/4/17 ¤U¤È 09:54:23
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§A¸Ü©O¡H
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edward
Posted - 2007/4/17 ¤U¤È 10:05:18
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Let's do a brief mental exercise -
Edward kills two hundred people.
An earthquake kills two hundred people.
God kills two hundred people.
Owing to different "agents" in the causation of these events, although the ultimately described effects are the same, the three above-mentioned events are of different "moral" characters.
I hope you could understand what I mean.
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edward
Posted - 2007/4/17 ¤U¤È 10:11:24
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Dear Handsome,
I think the difficulty is not too difficult to resolve. We are often reminded that God is the ultimate efficent Cause of all events. But he uses the agents differently. Even the "free" agents (saints, sinners, angels, demons) are in his hands.
It would be interesting to recall again a relevant example. E.g. Are D'Artagnon and Cardinal Richeleau really "free" in Alexandre Dumas' famous novel "The Three Musketeers"?
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