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作者
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內容
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靚仔
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Posted -
2001/6/4 下午 04:20:09
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辛力社五月廿八日的一篇報導,很有趣,值得一讀,網址: http://Zenit.org/english/archive/0105/ZE010528.htm#6184
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edward
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Posted -
2001/6/4 下午 04:57:26
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小弟恰巧亦讀了拉大哥一本叫《Called to Communion》的書，當中也提有提到普世教會與本地教會之間的關係。
我是較為認同拉大哥的看法的。個人比較傾向，將基督的「教會」看成是基督的「身體」。「基督」奧跡的完滿，是在天上；而這奧跡亦局部地臨現在各地方教會之中。
若我們將焦點放在主耶穌基督身上，則不難理解普世教會「先」於地方教會這觀念。
這又將回到與歸一兄先前所討論的：教會「一」而又「多」的問題。還記得先前和歸一兄的討論嗎？一提到教會，我所想到的是「普世教會」，而歸一兄所想到的就是「當下在這兒的信友團體」。我會覺得兩者其實都是真的，袛不過我們須要先界定何者為「先」而矣。
原來這裡也是樞機們爭論的「縮影」！
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steve
管理人員
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Posted -
2001/6/4 下午 07:44:28
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Arent these people politicians?
Obviously, it s a debate between Right-wingers and Left-wingers. The subject of universal vs particular church is used to defend their own purpose. I dont think they care much about the argument. Probably, handsome and edward are better able to make unbiased discussion on the subject.
By the way, it seems that participants in this forum do take sides....eg. Brother One looks like a left-winger to me....
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靚仔
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Posted -
2001/6/5 上午 09:32:42
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hmmmm....Card. Dulles is not a bishop at all, He is just a Jesuit priest, and also he is not an offical in Vatican. His most famous book is the models of church,
I don't think he opinion is bias, of couse, its just opinion, Card Ratzinger is a well known theologian before he got the red hat. It is a theological debate, and indeed, very interesting one, if we just look on the issue, and not their rank and post.
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靚仔
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Posted -
2001/6/5 上午 09:42:07
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可不可以是同時存在, 而無先後? 聖父之為父, 因為子之出現, 是同時的.
教會一方面一開始時已是普世性的. 這耶路撒冷的團體在五旬節當天就向萬民宣講, 但同時是本地的, 是一個圍繞耶路撒冷的團體.
這是教會的一體兩面. 實無先後之分的問題.
先後, 亦可以是說優先的先, 但同樣地方教會和普世教會應是無先後的.
梵二很清楚說明地方教會不是普世教會的一個分部, 而是普世教會在本地的臨現. 是"教會在香港",而不是"羅馬教會香港支部".
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steve
管理人員
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Posted -
2001/6/5 上午 11:30:30
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The subject of Universal vs Particular church is of course interesting.
But knowing Ratz and Kasper, it would be hard for anyone to comment without having to take sides. Even Dulles find it hard not to stand on Ratz... considering the politics. Thats why I find the discussion between handsome and edward or brother one probably more interesting since there is no political issue involved.
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edward
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Posted -
2001/6/5 下午 09:56:52
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香港教會當然不是羅馬教會支部，因為羅馬教會根本就是一個地方教會。
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靚仔
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Posted -
2001/6/6 上午 10:00:22
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照edward所言, 羅馬教會和香港教會這兩地方教會間之關係何如?拉大哥既非羅馬主教,或說根本不是任何真實的地方主教,為何此人可對另一個地方教會指手劃腳?
羅馬帝國的版圖何時曾伸延到中國的香港? 伯多祿的首席權應如何理解?大公會議和教宗的關係又如何?為何教宗對一些大公會議的決議可以選擇性地接受?這些都是一些好問題,其實還有很多問題藉得思考.
當然,為一些有堅定的教會良心的人,他們可以很良心平安地服膺 教會的"指示/訓導",平安到可以以上主的名號,衝入第二羅馬,君士旦丁堡屠城,而不去懷疑這是否真的是上主的旨意.
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edward
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Posted -
2001/6/6 下午 06:39:58
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靚仔兄所提出的問題確實有趣，但請先界定一下：甚麼是指手劃腳？教父時代的羅馬主教聖克萊孟、聖維克多，是否對其他地方教會指手劃腳？教父時代的聖濟利錄、聖亞大納削，在攻擊異端時，是否對普世教會（當中特別包括君士坦丁堡主教）指手劃腳？
有關君士坦丁堡屠城一事則更加耐人尋味了。你真是講到「似層層」、似乎君士坦丁堡屠城一案確是由羅馬教會的「訓導當局」指使，但是歷史的事實是如何？一個「神話」（fable）很難說明任何道理。
執行屠城「任務」的士兵，究竟是根據哪個教會的「訓導」？你能否舉出確切的資料嗎？是哪一年？哪位教宗？哪份詔書？
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靚仔
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Posted -
2001/6/7 上午 10:11:05
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你想指他們--羅馬主教聖克萊孟、聖維克多--的甚麼事件?
聖戰(十字軍)的士兵是最無辜的, 他們一心以為是去解放聖地, 但卻變成屠殺弟兄. 你以為教會可以置身事外?
是誰組織了這些聖戰? 是誰殺害了君士旦丁堡中千萬的基督徒?
噢!是的, 你可以說教宗沒有下命令屠城, 事件和他無關.
可幸, 當今教宗卻願意承擔過錯, 去求主求人寬恕.
他的道德勇氣比很多人都高.
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靚仔
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Posted -
2001/6/7 上午 10:58:37
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如對十字軍的歷史有興趣, 可到這網址溜覽http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/sbook1k.html
一個資料豐富,持平,有學術性的網站, 包括很多當時一手資料的譯文.
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迷霧
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Posted -
2001/6/7 下午 03:27:01
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可否再回到原來的論題？若有興趣討論十字軍／聖戰可考慮另闢新題。
地方教會在實際運作上到底如何平衡自主獨立和共融團結？未知大家有何「高見」？希望會有些具體理性的意見！
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edward
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Posted -
2001/6/7 下午 04:13:11
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發號十字軍東征的教宗，未必要對君士坦丁堡的屠城負上責任。我們必須審視發號者的意向，以及其後的人們是否遵守了他的意向，來決定天主教會在這件事所應負上的責任。
屠城的天主教徒在進行屠城的時候，並不是在遵守教宗的勸諭。教宗亦從未在事前或事後，嘉許屠殺君士坦丁堡人民的行動。教宗且對殺害基督徒的人處以絕罰，當他講到明叫你唔好咁做的時候，我們又怎可以說教宗應為該事件負責呢？
若天主教會的訓導錯誤而令其成員在世界上作出荒旦愚昧的事情，那麼，教會當然要負上責任。然而在君士坦丁堡屠城一案上，教會的訓導當局，的確是沒有指使過其士兵去屠城。若教會真的在這件事情上不能「置身事外」的話，那麼，「負責」的意義不外是：教廷聖禮部和教區的禮儀委員會，應首先對小弟堂區的禮儀流弊負上責任；任何教友購買色情雜誌或嫖妓，都要關胡樞機的事。
胡樞機若要為嫖妓的教友負上責任，那並不是因為他教導那些教友這樣做，而是在於他沒有親身作出勸阻，亦未有將有關的教友作出處分，又或未登報表明與有關教友劃清界線。樞機真是難做了。
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靚仔
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Posted -
2001/6/7 下午 04:30:46
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哈哈，ｅｄｗａｒｄ的比喻幾有趣呀．
我們好像忘記了隨軍出征的有教宗的”代表”在內，亦有很多隨軍司鐸，將屠城的人施以絕罰？
好像不是啊，他們好像除了幾聲”譴責外，沒有受到甚麼懲罰．最後還有大赦呢．最後西方的教堂也收藏了不少搶劫回來的聖物．
唉，這些事都和教會無關，可以去寫笑話．
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靚仔
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Posted -
2001/6/7 下午 04:48:28
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看一看一位參與該戰爭的武士的記載，看看是誰的"訓導"
Robert de Clari, ch. lxxiii-xxiii, in Hopf: Chroniques, pp. 57-58. Old French.
LXXII. When the pilgrims saw this,[TR has"a course expression in the original"] they were very angry and grieved much;
they went back from the other side of the harbor to their lodgings. When the barons had returned and had gotten ashore, they
assembled and were much amazed, and said that it was on account of their sins that they did not succeed in anything and could
not capture the city. Meanwhile the bishops and the clergy in the army debated and decided that the war was a righteous one,
and t they certainly ought to attack the Greeks. For formerly the inhabitants of the city had been obedient to the law of Rome
and now the were disobedient, since they said that the law of Rome was of n account, and called all who believed in it " dogs."
And the bishop said that for this reason one ought certainly to attack them, an that it was not a sin, but an act of great charity.
LXXIII. Then it was announced to all the host that all the Venetian and every one else should go and hear the sermons on
Sunday morning; [Apr 11, 1204] and they did so. Then the bishops preached to the army, the bishop of Soissons, the bishop
of Troyes, the bishop of Havestaist [Halberstadt] master Jean Faicette [De Noyon, chancellor of Baldwin of Flanders], and
the abbot of Loos, and they showed to the pilgrims that the war was a righteous one; for the Greeks were traitors and
murderers, and also disloyal, since they had murdered their rightful lord, and were worse than Jews. Moreover, the bishops
said that, by the authority of God and in the name of the pope, they would absolve all who attacked the Greeks. Then the
bishops commanded the pilgrims to confess their sins and receive the communion devoutly; and said that they ought not to
hesitate to attack the Greeks, for the latter were enemies of God. They also commanded that all the evil women should be
sought out and sent away from the army to a distant place. This was done; the evil women were all put on a vessel and were
sent very far away from the army.
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edward
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Posted -
2001/6/7 下午 09:03:58
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請看教宗依諾森三世，如何在事後「稱讚」那位特使：
To Peter, Cardinal Priest of the Title of St. Marcellus, Legate of the Apostolic See.
We were not a little astonished and disturbed to bear that you and our beloved son the Cardinal Priest of the Title of St. Praxida and Legate of the Apostolic See, in fear of the looming perils of the Holy Land, have left the province of Jerusalem (which, at this point is in such great need) and that you have gone by ship to Constantinople. And now we see that what we dreaded has occurred and what we feared has come to pass.... For you, who ought to have looked for help for the Holy Land, you who should have stirred up others, both by word and by example, to assist the Holy Land on your own initiative you sailed to Greece, bringing in your footsteps riot only the pilgrims, but even the natives of the Holy Land who came to Constantinople, following our venerable brother, the Archbishop of Tyre. When you had deserted it, the Holy Land remained destitute of men, void of strength. Because of you, its last state was worse than the first, for all its friends deserted with you; nor was there any admirer to console it.... We ourselves were not a little agitated and, with reason, we acted against you, since you had fallen in with this counsel and because you had deserted the Land which the Lord consecrated by his presence, the land in which our King marvelously performed the mystery of our redemption....
It was your duty to attend to the business of your legation and to give careful consideration, not to the capture of the Empire of Constantinople, but rather to the defense of what is left of the Holy Land and, with the Lord's leave, the restoration of what has been lost. We made you our representative and we sent you to gain, not temporal, but rather eternal riches. And for this purpose, our brethren provided adequately for your needs.
We have just beard and discovered from your letters that you have absolved from their pilgrimage vows and their crusading obligations all the Crusaders who have remained to defend Constantinople from last March to the present. It is impossible not to be moved against you, for you neither should nor could give any such absolution.
Whoever suggested such a thing to you and how did they ever lead your mind astray?. . .
How, indeed, is the Greek church to be brought back into ecclesiastical union and to a devotion for the Apostolic See when she has been beset with so many afflictions and persecutions that she sees in the Latins only an example of perdition and the works of darkness, so that she now, and with reason, detests the Latins more than dogs? As for those who were supposed to be seeking the ends of Jesus Christ, not their own ends, whose swords, which they were supposed to use against the pagans, are now dripping with Christian blood they have spared neither age nor sex. They have committed incest, adultery, and fornication before the eyes of men. They have exposed both matrons and virgins, even those dedicated to God, to the sordid lusts of boys. Not satisfied with breaking open the imperial treasury and plundering the goods of princes and lesser men, they also laid their hands on the treasures of the churches and, what is more serious, on their very possessions. They have even ripped silver plates from the altars and have hacked them to pieces among themselves. They violated the holy places and have carried off crosses and relics. .
Furthermore, under what guise can we call upon the other Western peoples for aid to the Holy Land and assistance to the Empire of Constantinople? When the Crusaders, having given up the proposed pilgrimage, return absolved to their homes; when those who plundered the aforesaid Empire turn back and come home with their spoils, free of guilt; will not people then suspect that these things have happened, not because of the crime involved, but because of your deed? Let the Lord's word not be stifled in your mouth. Be not like a dumb dog, unable to bark. Rather, let them speak these things publicly, let them protest before everyone, so that the more they rebuke you before God and on God's account, the more they will find you simply negligent. As for the absolution of the Venetian people being falsely accepted, against ecclesiastical rules, we will not at present argue with you....
Given July 12
資料來源：
Pope Innocent III, Ep 136, Patrologia Latina 215, 669-702, translated by James Brundage, The Crusades: A Documentary History, (Milwaukee, WI: Marquette University Press, 1962), 208-09
（取自靚仔兄所提供的網址）
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edward
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Posted -
2001/6/7 下午 09:25:00
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有關依諾森三世絕罰之說，取自這個網頁。當中有一段是這樣的：
So the first thing to be noted is that this horrific event is morally indefensible, and that Catholics know and accept this. Secondly, and most importantly, the pope at the time, Pope Innocent III, neither knew about nor sanctioned in the least this massacre and sacrilegious pillage. In fact, he had forbidden the Crusaders, on pain of excommunication, to attack Byzantium, instructing the leader, Boniface of Montferrat, that: "The crusade must not attack Christians, but should proceed as quickly as possible to the Holy Land." He only found out the full horror of what had happened more than eight months later, and wrote to Cardinal Peter Capuano, denouncing the sack in no uncertain terms...
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edward
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Posted -
2001/6/8 上午 08:56:59
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有關第四次十字軍東征君士坦丁堡屠城事件，看來的確是要開新題討論了。
現在先回到普世教會和本地教會的問題：「指手劃腳」是一個貶義詞。在甚麼情況下作出的行為，屬於指手劃腳呢？
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靚仔
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Posted -
2001/6/8 上午 09:47:49
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在一個教區重修其主教座堂時, 聖部要求其停止施工, 因有人打小報告, 認為改變部份違反禮規.
不知算不算指手劃腳?
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edward
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Posted -
2001/6/8 上午 11:40:32
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靚仔兄所言的事件, 是否指這件?
何謂指手劃腳呢? 你所指的是聖禮部, 還是打小報告的人?
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靚仔
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Posted -
2001/6/8 下午 02:22:19
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不是, 那是最近發生於美國的一個總教區.
你所說的那件,拉大哥也沒說該主教有錯, 只是說那不是強制性的.
但地方主教是有權作出改動的. (in the canonical pt. of view)
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edward
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Posted -
2001/6/9 上午 10:55:39
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那麼，發生在美國的那事件詳情是怎樣的？所謂的違反禮規又是如何違反？
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靚仔
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Posted -
2001/6/9 上午 11:55:56
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報導無講怎樣違規,只是說要瞭解情況.
那是miwukee總教區, 個裝修計劃可到該教區的網頁看, 而小弟愚昧的見識, 就察覺不到有何違規情況, 而且照看就幾靚,
可能照"他們"的看法, 我們的主教座堂也有問題.
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edward
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Posted -
2001/6/9 下午 01:13:40
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靚仔兄所提的，是否以下這段報導？
Vatican Suspends Renovation of Milwaukee Cathedral
但這兒所說的地方名和你所提的有點不同。
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靚仔
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Posted -
2001/6/11 上午 10:50:28
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是,就是這裡, 唉, 我中文又唔好, 英文又唔好, 拉丁又唔好, 無辦法啦, 大家將就一下吧,
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