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作者
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內容
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rasputin
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Posted -
2003/1/15 下午 07:26:10
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靚仔
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Posted -
2003/1/17 上午 10:25:12
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如明知天主藉耶穌基督所創立的天主公教為得救是必經之路,而不願加入,或不願在教會內堅持到底,便不能得救.LG14
任何人不得強迫別人違背自己的良心而信從天主教的信仰.CIC748.2
問題是"明知"和"良心".
假若某人由天主教轉向新教,我想很少情況他會"明知"天主教是得救的必經之路,而是他根本不相信她是"必經之路".
那就陷入我們倫理學所說的"錯誤良心"之中.
良心雖然錯誤,不過人仍有義務跟隨.
所以改教的人仍有得救的可能.
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靚仔
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Posted -
2003/1/17 上午 10:40:44
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因為雖然他們已改宗,但"對於那些已經受洗,享有基督徒美名,但不明認全部信仰,或不在伯多祿繼位者的領導下保持共融合一的人,教會自知有多種理由,仍與他們相連".LG15
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Augustine
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Posted -
2003/1/17 上午 11:51:59
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"如明知天主藉耶穌基督所創立的天主公教為得救是必經之路,而不願加入,或不願在教會內堅持到底,便不能得救.LG14"
(which means the delibrate rejection of the Holy Spirit by Human Will---inspired by the devil as mentioned in Epistle by St.Paul to the Hebrews)
---this is a sufficient condition for a man to lose salvation but by no means necessary. He is still as likely to lose his Salvation. Why? because LG14 does not apply here. No conclusion may be given.
We simply can't judge apart from that because we don't know the man's real intentions. It should be God to judge.
That is the dilemma of the freedom of consecience, since no one could assure you will be banished to hell iff you don't accept the Catholic Faith. AS a result, it is extremely more difficult than the past to "convince" or persuade someone to enter the Church.
Protestant Fundamentalists often give threats of Hell to people outside their assembly. But the Catholic Church, according to CIC748.2, just simply could not coerce anyone to Faith by such "cheap" means. The Holy Spirit must be the larger force moving unbelievers to Faith, not just by preaching anymore.
This I think the signs of the End of the World, "when the numbers of the elect are going to be full", if we consider the over-whelming boom of apostasy, heresy and sacrileges over the world since firstly the French Revolution, "Enlightenment", Reformation and lastly, the Communist Rebellion. We see the time is indeed approaching.
We must defend our Faith with more efforts because it is MUCH MORE easy to lose it nowadays.
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rasputin
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Posted -
2003/1/17 下午 08:08:12
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抱歉, 都係唔多明解?
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Augustine
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Posted -
2003/1/18 下午 12:14:10
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That is, we can't make a definite conclusion.
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simon
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Posted -
2003/1/26 下午 03:59:23
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天主教不是相信人即使沒有宗教信仰，只要是好人，有愛心，也可以得救嗎？
既然不信教也有機會得救，天主教徒轉做基督教徒，怎會不能得救？基督教徒也是信奉同一位神嘛！
Simon
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Augustine
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Posted -
2003/1/26 下午 04:28:37
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是好人，有愛心，也可以得救---That applies to people who died before Christ came OR have no chance to hear about Him. Yes they will be judged by their own conscience.
But if the above statement is applied to every person who is "好人，有愛心". Then this is simply secular indifferentism (even worse than religious indifferentism) which is condemned by Pope St. Pius X and refuted in the encyclical "Domine Iesu" by Pope JP2nd.
不信教也有機會得救---Of course everything is logically Possible for God. But If that disbelief involves rejection of the Faith and in particular the Inspiration of the Holy Ghost then according to the Epistle to Hebrews this is a DIRECT offense against God and will not be saved. Why? Because he refuses to be saved, like the Iseralites in the desert for 40 years.
Summary:
We know that by remaining faithful in the Catholic Church and by partaking the Holy Sacraments, in particular the Holy sacrifice of the Mass, we will be saved...point 1.
And he who rejects God's Calling to salvation-under the accident of the preaching of the Catholic Church by Will(which is inspired by the Devil such as the early Jews who stoned St. Stephen), will certainly be damned(LG14).....point 2
Catholic Converts to Protestantism? Point 1 clearly does not apply here. How about point 2? We don't know
because it is his own affair in his Soul. Only God knows what he is thinking and why he convert to Protestantism. So point 2 does not apply neither.
Therefore, there are no conclusions.
"信奉同一位神"---even the Jews believe in Yaweh as we do. It very much depends on what precisely is meant by
"信奉". Eg. Does refusing Christ stubbornly and persecuting Christian means "信奉同一位神"??
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simon
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Posted -
2003/1/26 下午 05:08:00
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Augustine,
我接觸基督信仰三十多年，數年前才領洗。據慕道班的導師說，好人就可以得救，即使沒有宗教信仰。為了這點，我亦曾詢問三位神父，他們都同意，其中兩位更是聖神修院的老師。
你的想法，似乎是過時了。對於誰可上天堂，可參考瑪竇福音，第二十五章三十一至四十六節，還要看四十六節後的註釋四。
祝平安。
Simon
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Augustine
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Posted -
2003/1/26 下午 06:19:25
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Then, according to you, it does not matter if we quit the Church.
Besides in the Church there are so many "troublesome" rules.
I could be nice outside the Church and be SAVED anyway.
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simon
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Posted -
2003/1/27 上午 12:41:45
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Dear Augustine,
Surely there will be a difference if we quit the Church.
The purpose of this life is not just to try to go to Heaven. Life will be easier if we have some guidance or direction. Moreover, don't you feel happier when you know God? Good people without religious belief can enter Heaven. But they miss the happy time with God when they are in this world.
Simon
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Augustine
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Posted -
2003/1/27 下午 12:05:30
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You have not faced the crux of the problem. That is, whether the Catholic Faith is necessary to salvation. Yes or No.
"The purpose of this life is not just to try to go to Heaven"---what is this purpose, if exists, then?
In fact the Christian Life Will be harder than a pagan life. Look at the Holy Martyrs, they do not choose the Faith to "be nice" and "enjoy life" and "get direction". Surely they are not merely "comforted" for being Christians.
The Christian Faith is a Testimony to Christ, which is destined to be spurn and rejected by this impious world dominated by the Evil One. Being a Christian means struggle against the profane world and his inner temptations.
This is not some "comfortable" option of being "nice".
Christians not necessarily "feel happier" in this world but we have the HOPE to have that TRUE HAPPINESS IN HEAVEN promised to all God's Faithful...yes, ONLY. People without the Christian Faith won't have this HOPE.
We must always remember we Christians never belong to this World which is about to pass but we are pilgrims to the Gate of Heaven.
"Good people without religious belief can enter Heaven. But they miss the happy time with God when they are in this world."---In fact,
the "Happy Time" in Heaven is infinitely better than any "happy time" in this World.
Can zero compare to infinity? You were saying that all "good"(in fact not) people, even those rejecting the Holy Ghost, share the SAME degree of God's Promise-the Heaven.
This again reduces to my first qeustion:"Is the Catholic Faith necessary?"
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simon
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Posted -
2003/1/27 下午 02:28:04
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Dear Augustine,
I am sorry that you don't feel the joy of being a Christian. My experience is quite different from you. I was a fairly happy person when I was not a Christian. And I am a happier person when I am a Christian. The happiness is not related to Heaven at all. Being close to God (by becoming a Christian) is very happy by itself.
God is merciful. He does not want us to be unhappy in this life.
According to my belief and the belief of those 3 priests I mentioned, being a Christian is NOT the essential step to enter Heaven. Is my expression clear enough.
Perhaps we are commiting the same mistake, I must say. While you are trying to say certain people cannot enter Heaven and I am saying certain people can enter Heaven, we are acting as God who should be the final judge. God never grants his power in this aspect to me. Did He grant it to you?
Take care.
Simon
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Augustine
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Posted -
2003/1/27 下午 03:49:32
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As I said in the previous comment:"No definite conclusion is given"---whether a convert to Protestantism will be saved or not.
That is always what I thought. In fact, I did not judge anybody at anytime. I said:"NO CONCLUSION IS GIVEN",ie, I need to say that we cannot give FALSE HOPES to people outside the Church.
"you are trying to say certain people cannot enter Heaven"---I was quoting Hebrews but I did not say converts to Protestantism is always NOT SAVED. They will be judged(as I said) by their motives to leave the Church. As 靚仔 said, if they did this truly by conscience they MAY (=may or may not) be saved.
"According to my belief and the belief of those 3 priests I mentioned, being a Christian is NOT the essential step to enter Heaven. Is my expression clear enough"---Yes it is very clear, in fact I agree to this too.
However note that: "being a Christian is not essential to go to Heaven"...(1)
"Every non-Christian go to Heaven"...(2)
(1)&(2) are TWO different statements. (1) I agree, but (1) DOES NOT imply (2). I disagree with (2).
Got it??
Did you really understand what I mean in the comment earlier on 27/1??
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靚仔
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Posted -
2003/1/27 下午 04:43:08
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Christ is necessary to salvation, and the "Church" as the body of Christ, so that she is necessray to salvation too, but how?
some way we know, like thru sacrament, but some ways we don't.
If simply said the Catholic Faith is necessary to salvation, that is misleading, I think.
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simon
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Posted -
2003/1/27 下午 08:17:18
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Dear Augustine,
Re: "NO CONCLUSION IS GIVEN",ie, I need to say that we cannot give FALSE HOPES to people outside the Church.
You have made 2 statements:
1/ No conclusion is given.
2/ We cannot give false hopes to people outside the Church.
These 2 statements are contradicting to each other.
If you cannot make a clear conclusion, how do you know the hopes are 'false'?
If you want to keep the first statement, you need to change the second statement to:
We cannot give 'uncertain' hopes to people outside the church.
Is that more reasonable?
Simon
PS: Acutally I do not believe in eternal punishment at this moment. If you want to know more about my thoughts, please take a look at the topic "天主早知誰要落地獄，為何要造他出世受永苦？"
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Augustine
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Posted -
2003/1/28 下午 01:56:59
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"Catholic Faith" means the common portion of the Christian Faith possessed by the universal Church(not just the Church of Rome, of course)
that are NECESSARY to salvation:e.g. The Divinity of Christ, His literal Resurrection, the Trinity and the Necessity of Sanctifying(whatever name non-catholics call it) Grace, the Fall of Men and corruption of Original Justice, the Eternal Fire......etc.
Who can tell us all of them? Noboby can. Becuase that's God's secret. But we know a safe way: Profess the Roman Catholic Profession of the "Catholic Faith" and have the sacraments...etc. You will be saved because Christ promised us through the Roman Catholic Church.
Some Orthodox or Protestants have it, but if you are good Christian in the Roman Church, thru the sacraments, you will (sufficiently but not necassrily) be saved. God has His many ways to save us through Christ we don't know all.
So, "Catholic" is not just "Roman Catholic". In a sense, some orthodox or Protestants are "Catholics". "Catholic Faith" simply means "the collection of Christianity Faith that saves and is sufficient to let you go to Heaven".
"If simply said the Catholic Faith is necessary to salvation, that is misleading, I think."-sure. But if we refine the terms, that will not be misleading.
So always the old saying;"NO conclusion is given".
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Augustine
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Posted -
2003/1/28 下午 02:30:27
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Hi Simon,
"People outside the Church" is not the same, as I already said, as: "People outside the Roman Catholic Church".
"People outside the Church" means people having rejected by Will the Christian Faith(I avoid the "Catholic Faith" for you, for fear of confusion, but actually they are the same"---see my previous comment today).
Therefore, "People Outside the Church", who unfortunately, may appear "nice" or "good" to us, BUT REFUSES TO ACCEPT CHRIST AFTER HEARING ABOUT HIM---I mean being moved by the Holy Ghost...will not be saved.
NB: We mortals see by eyes(so someone may appears "nice") but God judges primarily thru MIND. God condemns stubborn minds. This "stubborness" in fact is the Pride against God. God can't force him to Heaven if he does not feel the need to go there.
Eg: A "nice" man may say:"I am a moral and righteous man, I keep all the Laws(such as the Pharisees). I don't need that Christian stuff!"---He is good, but he is too Proud to accept Christ. St. Paul says, the Gospel of the Cross, HAS ALWAYS BEEN A FOLLY TO THE WORLD. Christians will remain stupid in secular eyes.
Then...? The Bible tells us they are NOT GOING TO BE SAVED. It is not God but THEY THEMSELVES who condemns themselves to that Eternal Fire.
So if we tell these people:"You are going to be saved", We are lying to them, That is in fact worse than "giving False Hopes"....this is type A people
"No conclusion..." refers to those who appears to be in the Catholic Church, such as the Protestants, but run away from the Roman Church.
1)We are not mind readers,
2)We don't know his motives of leaving that Body of Christ-or that part of the Body of Christ
3)So we could only leave him to God. i.e., "No Conclusion is given".....this is type B people
1)People A and People B are different.
2)for type A people, they are condemned to Hell
for type B people, "NO CONCLUSION IS GIVEN"
3)What is the contradition??
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靚仔
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Posted -
2003/1/28 下午 02:53:44
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哈哈!有意思,有意思.
如你問我信唔信永罰,我會答我信有這刑罰,但最終有沒有人會受這刑罰,我不知道,而且我希望沒有.
這有些似九三年前的香港,一個犯謀殺罪的人是必然要判死刑的,因這是法律上明文規定的刑罰.但實際上最終所有人都得到特赦.
因為如果我說沒有永罰,我相信這和教會的一貫訓導不符,有可能被抄牌,甚至被認為是違反天主教信仰.
奧斯定兄的推論仍有問題的,教會的信仰只是說,教會為救恩是必須的,但不是"宣信"教會的信仰是必須的.這是極大的分別.
人除了用具體有形的行動(洗禮)加入教會外,他仍有一些,可能是我們不知的方式和教會產生"聯繫",而使他的得救成為可能.
而這例子和推論是有疑點的: A "nice" man may say:"I am a moral and righteous man, I keep all the Laws(such as the Pharisees). I don't need that Christian stuff!"---He is good, but he is too Proud to accept Christ. St. Paul says, the Gospel of the Cross, HAS ALWAYS BEEN A FOLLY TO THE WORLD. Christians will remain stupid in secular eyes.
Then...? The Bible tells us they are NOT GOING TO BE SAVED. It is not God but THEY THEMSELVES who condemns themselves to that Eternal Fire.
他是要真正相信福音是為他自己的得救是必須的,而拒絕,才算是你所說的例子. 如他根本不相信福音真的能夠救他的,我想這不是你所指的不能得救的範圍.他可能只是有一個未經培育的頑固的錯誤良心吧了.
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Augustine
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Posted -
2003/1/28 下午 05:09:19
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"教會為救恩是必須的,但不是"宣信"教會的信仰是必須的.這是極大的分別."---But I said "宣信"教會的信仰+ valid sacraments is sufficient(not necessary) to salvation. This is plan A to salvation.
But when I said: "portion of the Christian Faith possessed by the universal Church(not just the Church of Rome, of course) that are NECESSARY to salvation", I mean these doctrines are NECESSARY for plan A to work.
If you don't follow plan A to salvation, this's fine(like maybe Conficius or Plato). But if you are following the Catholic Church as your guide and master to follow, you need to keep these Necessary doctrines: Divinity of Christ...etc. This is commanded both by the Bible and Tradition. If you disregard these you are disregarding the Guidance of the Holy Ghost so you won't count as a member on this ship, sic, the Catholic Church.
You are free to deny the Trinity if you have plan B to save you. But if you really want plan A(be saved as a Catholic Christian), you can't choose not to accept the Trinity or the Original Sin. Why? Because you are binded by the Church to follow them.
In this meaning, these key doctrines are "necessary".
Talk about the other thing later, I am heading to lectures now.
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靚仔
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Posted -
2003/1/28 下午 05:29:33
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Ha, ha, real interesting, when and where you founnd in the church document that we don't need Christ and church for salvation of plan B?
Christ and church is nesseary to "all" salvation, if I didn't misunderstand the church teaching.
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simon
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Posted -
2003/1/28 下午 10:05:48
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真對不起，容或我的英文不夠好吧！我愈看愈糊塗，什麼Plan A, Plan B，像無線電話的月費計劃！
我接觸過不少好人，至少我覺得他們比我好，他們不自負，不驕傲，他們聽了多次福音，仍覺基督信仰如其他許多宗教一樣，既不能證實，也不能否定，他們為人認真，不想像買馬般隨便挑一隻投注。他們想了又想，最後決定不加入任何一個教派，只憑良心做人，老老實實地盡力做一個好人。
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simon
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Posted -
2003/1/28 下午 10:07:06
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真對不起，容或我的英文不夠好吧！我愈看愈糊塗，什麼Plan A, Plan B，像無線電話的月費計劃！
我接觸過不少好人，至少我覺得他們比我好，他們不自負，不驕傲，他們聽了多次福音，仍覺基督信仰如其他許多宗教一樣，既不能證實，也不能否定，他們為人認真，不想像買馬般隨便挑一隻投注。他們想了又想，最後決定不加入任何一個教派，只憑良心做人，老老實實地盡力做一個好人。
如果這類人死後不能進入天國，若天主同意，我願意將我的天國門票送給他們其中一個。
Simon
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jedi
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Posted -
2003/1/28 下午 10:38:59
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假若不是愈看愈糊塗，而是根本就堅信自己掌握了真理，別人一切努力的分析和解說置之不理，這類人是否在教會內？他又是否可以得救？
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simon
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Posted -
2003/1/28 下午 11:23:25
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Jedi,
正如你說，教會內的確有不少自以為掌握了真理的人，隨意去判斷誰不可以升天國。
我們得切記，審判人的是天主，祂沒有授權我或你去替祂行事。以問題形式去暗示誰不屬於教會，誰不能進入天國，我亦認為是不該的。
天主賜人幽默感，如果你認為無線電話收費計劃的比喻不好笑，我向你賠不是。
Simon
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