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Posted - 2003/5/3 ¤U¤È 05:19:54
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simon
Posted - 2003/5/3 ¤U¤È 09:23:39
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Posted - 2003/5/3 ¤U¤È 10:49:53
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edward
Posted - 2003/5/3 ¤U¤È 11:20:30
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simon
Posted - 2003/5/4 ¤U¤È 12:15:01
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Simon
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edward
Posted - 2003/5/4 ¤U¤È 05:43:07
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simon
Posted - 2003/5/4 ¤U¤È 09:41:22
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Posted - 2003/5/4 ¤U¤È 09:46:00
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edward
Posted - 2003/5/6 ¤U¤È 04:07:32
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steve
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Posted - 2003/5/7 ¤W¤È 02:13:49
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steve
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Posted - 2003/5/7 ¤W¤È 02:16:49
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³z¹L¡u¥~¦b¤uµ{¡v¡A¤Ñ¥Dµ¹§Ú̱ҥܤF¡u¤º¦b¥Í©R¡v¡F¦ý¤Ï¹L¨Ó»¡¡A¦bÍ¢¤º¦b¥Í©Rªº¶ø¯µªº¥ú·Ó¤U¡AÍ¢ªº¤@¤Á¤uµ{³£±o¥H²z¸Ñ¡C¦P¼Ë¡A¦b¤H¨¤W¤]¦³Ãþ¦üªº±¡§Î¡C¤H¥i³z¹L¥Lªº¦æ¬°±N¦Û¤vÅã¥Ü¥X¨Ó¡A§ÚÌ·U¬O»{ÃѤ@Ó¤H¡A´N·U¤F¸Ñ¥Lªº¦æ¬°¡C
¤£¹L¡A¦b³oºØ¬Û¤¬ªºÃö«Y¤W¡A§ÚÌn½T»{¥~¦b¤uµ{ªºÀu¥ý©Ê¡Cº¥ý¬O¤Ñ¥D³z¹L¥~¦b¦æ°Ê¡A´¦¥Ü¤F¦Û¤vªº¤º¦b¥Í©R¡AµM«á¤H¤~±q³o¨Ç¦æ°Ê¤¤±À½×¥X¤Ñ¥Dªº¥»©Ê¡C¦pªG§Ú̱N³oÓ¯´§ÇËÂà¡A§Yº¥ý¬O±q¤Ñ¥Dªºµ´¹ï©Ê¡A¶W¶V©Ê¤J¤â¡AµM«á¤~¦b¾ú¥v²ª¸ñ´£¥X¦LÃÒ¡A¨º»ò¡A§ÚÌ©Ò¨¥zªº¤Ñ¥D¡A¦A¤£¬O¨º¦ì¦Û§Ú³q¶Çªº¤Ñ¥D¡A¦Ó¬O¤@¦ìõ¾Ç¦Ó¤S©â¶Hªº¤Ñ¥D¡C
¦pªG¤Ñ¥Dªº¥þª¾»PÍ¢ªº¤¯·O¤¬¬Û¥Ù¬Þ¡A¥¿¦]¬°§ÚÌ¥ý°²©w¤F¤Ñ¥Dªºµ´¹ï¤£ÅÜ¥»½è¡AµM«áµo²{»PÍ¢ªº¾ú¥v¦æ°Ê¤£¬Û²Å¡Cn¸Ñ¨M³oÓ¥Ù¬Þ¡A©Î³\§Ú̺¥ýnª`µøºÖµ©Ò°O¸üªºC¿q¡AÍ¢ªº¤@Á|¤â¡A¤@§ë¨¬´¦¥Ü¤F¬Æ»ò¡HÍ¢²M·¡¦a«ü¥X¡A¤£¬O°·±dªº¤H»ÝnÂå¥Í¡A¦Ó¬O¥Í¯fªº¤H¡FÍ¢¥ç¥i¥H¬°´M§ä¥¢¸¨ªº¤@°¦¦Ï¦Ó¥á¤U¨ä¥L¤E¤Q¤E°¦¡C¬°¬Æ»ò¤Ñ¥D¥»¥i¥H¤j¤½µL¨p¡A³B©ó¾ãÓ¤HÃþ¾ú¥v¥H¥~¡AµM¦Ó¡A³Ì²×¤S©ñ±ó³o¼Ë°µ¡H§Ú¬Û«H°£¤F·R¥H¥~¡A¦AµL¨ä¥L§ó«ê·íªº¸ÑÄÀ¡C
¦]¦¹¡A¤Ñ¥Dªº¥þª¾¨Ã¤£¬O©â¶Hªº¡A§ÚÌ¥²¶·±qC¿q©Ò´¦¥Üªº·R¥h²z¸Ñ¡C¦]µÛ³o¥÷·R¡AÍ¢¦Û¥Ñ¦a©ñ¤U¤F¦Û¤vªº¶W¶V©M¤£ÅÜ¡A¥D°Ê¦Ó«_ÀI¦a»P¤H¥æ©¹¡C¦P¼Ë¡A¦]µÛ¦P¤@¥÷·R¡A¤H¥ç±o¥H¦b¦Û¥Ñ¤¤¥h¦^À³¤Ñ¥D¡C©Ò¥H¡A³o¥÷·Rªº©I¥l»P¦^À³¬O¤£Â_¶}©ñªº¡CYªG¤Ñ¥D¬O·R¡AÍ¢ªÖ©w¤£Ä@¨£¨ì¥ô¦ó¤@Ó¤H³à¤`¡AÍ¢´Á«Ý§Ų́CÓ¤H¦b¦Û¥Ñ¤¤¥hÅé¨ýÍ¢ªº·O·R¡C
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edward
Posted - 2003/5/7 ¤W¤È 08:56:08
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¦b±Ò¥Üªºeconomy¸Ì¡A§Ú̥ѤѥDªº¥~¦b¦æ°Ê¨Ó²z¸ÑÍ¢ªº¥»½è¡C³o¤@ÂI§Ú»{¦P¡C
¡u¤Ñ¥Dªº¤¯·O¡v»P¡u³Q§P¸oªÌªº¥Ã»@¡v¤§¶¡¡A¬O§_ħtµÛ¯u¥¿ªº¥Ù¬Þ¡H
¹ïsimon¨Ó»¡¡A¤Ñ¥D³Ð³y¤F¤Ï«qÍ¢ªºÅ]°¡B®e³\¤Ñ¨aªºµo¥Í¡B®e³\¤H¥Ç¸o¡BÅý¤@¨Ç¨ü³yª««ö¨ä¥»©Ê¦Ó®ø³u¡Aºâ¤£ºâ¥ç¬O¤Ñ¥D¡u´Ý§Ô¡v©M¡u¤£¤¯·O¡vªºªí²{¡H
¥DC¿q¦b¤s¤¤¸t°V´¿»¡¡G¡u¥Ðùتº³¥¯ó¤µ¤ÑÁÙ¦b¡A©ú¤Ñ´N§ë¦bÄl¤¤¡A¤Ñ¥D©|¥B³o¼Ë¸Ë¹¢¡A«H¼wÁ¡®zªº¤Hþ¡A¦óªp§AÌ©O¡H¡v¡]º¿¤»30¡^
§Ú©Ó»{¯«ªº¤¯·O»P¤Hªº¤¯·O©¼¦¹¦³µÛ¦@³q¤§³B¡A¦ý¨âªÌ¨Ã¤£§¹¥þµ¥¦P¡C
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steve
ºÞ²z¤Hû
Posted - 2003/5/7 ¤W¤È 10:16:17
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Totally agreed.
I am not trying to say it is right or wrong to see a conflicting conclusion. All I have been trying to point out is that our ¡§way¡¨ of thinking lead us to this unsatisfactory answer.
Our understanding of God's IMMANENCE takes shape from our experience which is God¡¦s ECONOMY. But over time when this experience is transmitted in the abstract form, we have fully accepted the IMMANENT God as ¡§almighty, all knowing, omni-present¡K¡K¡¨. And when we talk and think, we take IMMANENCE as our starting point. And when this is put against our experience, we may find conflicting conclusions.
As in the answer from FAQ (¤£¹L¡A¦b³oºØ¬Û¤¬ªºÃö«Y¤W¡A§ÚÌn½T»{¥~¦b¤uµ{ªºÀu¥ý©Ê¡C), we should give priority to ECONOMY because it where we derive our understanding of the IMMANENCE. That explains why no satisfactory answer will be arrived if we fixed our starting point on IMMANENCE ( which is the wrong way round ).
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steve
ºÞ²z¤Hû
Posted - 2003/5/7 ¤W¤È 10:20:32
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The answer (from FAQ) to Simon's question is here :
¦]¦¹¡A¤Ñ¥Dªº¥þª¾(immanence)¨Ã¤£¬O©â¶Hªº¡A§ÚÌ¥²¶·±qC¿q©Ò´¦¥Üªº·R(economy)¥h²z¸Ñ....Í¢ªÖ©w¤£Ä@¨£¨ì¥ô¦ó¤@Ó¤H³à¤`¡AÍ¢´Á«Ý§Ų́CÓ¤H¦b¦Û¥Ñ¤¤¥hÅé¨ýÍ¢ªº·O·R¡C
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Augustine
Posted - 2003/5/7 ¤U¤È 01:58:56
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"§Ú»{ÃѤ@¦ì¯«¤÷¡A¥L¦b¨S¦³±Ð¤Íªº±¡ªp¤U¶}À±¼»¡A·Ó¼Ë¹ïµÛªÅ®ð¡u¯¬¥¦w"......
What's the problem with that? Do you doubt the validity of that Holy Sacrifice?
Actually as far as I know, Church law requires at least one server to answer the versicle. Only under extraordinary circumstances like lack of servers, could a priest say Mass alone.
And as far as I know the core portion of the MAss are the offetory, consecration, and communion of the priest. You won't get an invalidly mass just by omitting the "Dominus Vobiscum", LET ALONE saying it alone.
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è°¥J
Posted - 2003/5/7 ¤U¤È 02:39:41
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¶ø´µ©w¥S,§Ú·Q¦èº¡¥S©Òªízªº¤£¬O¤@Ó°ÝÃD,¦Ó¬O¤@Ó¥i¯à,¨Æ¹ê¤W¬O¤@Ó"¦³®Ä"ªº¥i¯à.
©Ò¥H§Ú¹ê»Ú¤W¤£©ú¥Õ§A¬°¦ó¦³¦¹¤@°Ý.
¤S¥t¥~,§Ú¹ï§A©Ò»¡ªºcore portion of the mass ¥]¬A"communion of the priest" ¤£¥H¬°µM,§ó¤£n»¡§@¬°¸t²½¦³®Äªº±ø¥ó.
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edward
Posted - 2003/5/7 ¤U¤È 05:25:37
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¥v´£¤Ò¥S©Ò»¡ªºimmanence¡A«ö¤p§Ìªº²z¸Ñ¡A¤£¬O«ü¡u¤Ñ¥D¤º¦b©ó¨ü³yª«¡v¶Ü¡H
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edward
Posted - 2003/5/7 ¤U¤È 05:27:16
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§Ú»{¬°¶ø´µ©w¥S©Ò´£¥Xªº½×ÂI¡AÀ³¸Ó¦b§»ö¤@Ä椤¥tÅP·sÃD°Q½×¬°§´¡C
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steve
ºÞ²z¤Hû
Posted - 2003/5/7 ¤U¤È 06:10:09
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No Ed, I am using it in the context of Rahnerian's Trinity. In his famous words :
"immanent trinity is economic trinity and economic trinity is immanent trinity".
It is only in this sense that conflicting conclusions about God can be avoided.
The methodology is reasonably useful because it ensures consistency between our experience about God and what God really is (which is beyond us). In other words, we must maintain that "from economic to immanent" (±q¤Ñ¥D¥~¦b¤uµ{¤J¤â ¥Ñ¾ú¥v¶i¤J«H¥õ¡A²z¸Ñ¤Ñ¥Dªº¤º¦b¥Í©R) has to be equal to "from immanent to economic" (±q¤Ñ¥Dªº¤º¦b¥Í©R¤J¤â ¥ýn°²©w¤F«H¥õ¥ß³õ¡A©ú¥ÕÍ¢ªº¥~¦b¨Ï©R¡AµM«á²z¸Ñ¨ä¨Ï©R)
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steve
ºÞ²z¤Hû
Posted - 2003/5/7 ¤U¤È 06:59:06
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That is what I learnt from my favourite professor's favourite trick...( only if I have got it right ) ( I am not too sure )....if Big brother Handsome can give me a hand???
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Augustine
Posted - 2003/5/7 ¤U¤È 09:43:29
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The doubt about the empty set of "goat on the left" is understandable.
What I couldn't catch is: what is the point of mocking a part of the Holy Mass here as an exempla "gratia"? Doesn't the expression:"speaking to the air" clear enough to illustrate the condition of the "goats on the left"?
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simon
Posted - 2003/5/7 ¤U¤È 10:23:49
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»¡¤F¨º»ò¤[¡A§Ú¤´µM¬Ý¤£¨ì¤@Ó¥O§Ú«HªAªºµª®×¡C
°²³]¤@¡G¤Ñ¥D¬O·O·Rªº¡AÍ¢¤£·|¦s¤ß¥O¤H¨üW¡C
°²³]¤G¡G¤Ñ¥D¯àª¾¹L¥h¥¼¨Ó¨C¥ó¨Æ¡C
°²³]¤T¡G¤Ñ¥D¯à¹wª¾¬Y¤H¦º¤£®¬§ï¡A·|¤U¦aº»¨ü¥ÃW¡AÍ¢ÁÙ¬O§â¬Y¤H³y¤F¥X¨Ó¡C¬Y¤H¥ç¦p¤Ñ¥Dªº¨Æ¥ý¹w®Æ¤U¦aº»¡C
«Ü©úÅã¡A¥H¤W¤T¶µ°²³]¬O¥Ù¬Þªº¡A¤TªÌ¤£¯à¨Ã¦s¡Cµ²½×¥u¥i¬O¥H¤U¨ä¤¤¤§¤@¡G
¤@¡B¤Ñ¥D¤£¬O·O·R¡A¬Æ¦Ü¦³ÂIh«Ý¨g¡A¦]Í¢©úª¾µ²§½¤]§â¬Y¤H³y¥X¨Ó¡A¥Ñ¥L¤U¦aº»¨ü¥ÃW¡C
¤G¡B¤Ñ¥D¬O·O·Rªº¡A¦ý¤£¯à¹wª¾µ²§½¡AÍ¢«Ü§V¤O¥h¬@±Ï¥@¤H¡A¦ý¤£¬O¤H¤H±o±Ï¡C
¤T¡B¤Ñ¥D¬O·O·Rªº¡A¤]¯à¹wª¾¥¼¨Ó¡A§Y¨Ï¤H¦b¥Í®É¨S¦³Âk¨ÌÍ¢¡A¦º«áÁÙ¬O¦³¾÷·|®¬§ï¡A¦Ó¥B¤Ñ¥D¦³µL®É¶¡µ¥«Ý¡A©Ò¥H³Ì²×¤H¤H³£·|±o±Ï¡C
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Simon
¤S¡G½Ð§O»¡§Ú¤°»ò¡u©âªÅ¡v¡u¤£©âªÅ¡v¡A«ô¦«¡C
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edward
Posted - 2003/5/8 ¤W¤È 02:09:55
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ÂЦ躡¥S¡G
¦Ñ¹ê»¡¡A§Ú±q¨S¦³¥Î¡u©âªÅ¡vµ¥¦r²´¨Ó©M§A°Q½×¤Ñ¥Dªº¥þª¾©M¤¯·O¤§¶¡ªº°ÝÃD¡CµM¦Ó¡A±q§A©M¥v´£¤Òªº°Q½×¤¤¡A§Úªº½T¬O·Pı¨ì§A¬O°¾°õ©óÓ¤H¹ï¡u¤¯·O¡vªº²z¸Ñ¡C
¤Ñ¥D¬O¤Ñ¥D¡A¤H¬O¤H¡C¤j®aªº¨¤¦â¤£¦P¡A´N¦³¤£¦Pªº¦æ¨Æ·Ç«h©M¤è¦¡¡C¤H±þ®`¤H¡A©¹©¹¬O¤£¹D¼wªº¡F¦ý¤Ñ¥D±þ¤H«h¬O¤Ñ¸g¦a¸q¡C©Ò¥H¡A§Ú©l²×»{¬°¤Ñ¥Dªº¤¯·O©M¤Hªº¤¯·O¬O¦³¤À§Oªº¡C
§ÚË«Ü·Q°Ý¡G¬°¦ó¤¯·Oªº¤Ñ¥D´N¤£¥iÅý¤H¨üW¡H¬°¦ó¤Ñ¥D§â¤@¨ÇÀ³¨ü¥Ã»@ªº¤H§ë¶i¦aº»¡A·|¬O¡u¤£¤¯¡vªº¨Æ¡H³o¤£¹L¬O¤½¸qªº¹ê²{½}¤F¡H
§Aªº°ÝÃD¤£¬O¦b©ó©âªÅ¡A¦Ó¬O¦b©ó°¾°õ¡C¾Ü¯uµ½¦Ó©T°õ·íµMÀ³¸Ó¡A¦ý§AÁ`¸Ó´£¥XÃÒ¾Ú¡A¥hÃÒ©ú§A©Ò°í«ùªº¯u²z¡C
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edward
Posted - 2003/5/8 ¤W¤È 02:16:32
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¦pªG»{¬°¦º«á¦³¾÷·|®¬§ï¡A¨º»ò¬°¦ó¤£¥i¦³¾÷·|¦A¦¸»·Â÷¤Ñ¥D¡HY¦º«á¬O³W©w¥²µM·|®¬§ï¡A¨º»ò³oÁÙ¬O¦Û¥Ñ·N§Ó¶Ü¡H
§Y¨Ï©Ò¦³¤H³Ì²×³£¯à±o±Ï¡AµM¦Ó«ö¦èº¡¥S©Ò²z¸Ñ¡A¤Ñ¥D¤]¤£¬O¡u¤¯·O¡vªº¡Ð¡Ð¦]¬°Å]°¤´¬O¨üµÛ¥Ã»@¡C
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steve
ºÞ²z¤Hû
Posted - 2003/5/8 ¤W¤È 03:53:18
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§Ú¦P§AÁ¿¤µ±ß¦n¡u¥¿¡v¡A¤£ÅU§A¬O§_´¿¸g¦³§Ú¤µ±ß¦P¼Ëªº¸gÅç¡A§AÅ¥§¹¤§«á¡A´N¥uª¾Steve¤µ±ß¦n¡u¥¿¡v¡C§A¤S¦PEdwardÁ¿¡ASteve¤µ±ß¦n¡u¥¿¡v¡C¹ï§A¹ïEdward¨ÓÁ¿¡A«Ü¡u¥¿¡v®Ú¥»´N¬O©âªÅ¡A¤£¥Ñ§A©Úµ´¡C§A¨C¤Ñ¤£ª¾Á¿¤F´X¦h¡u©âªÅ¡vªº¸Ü¡A¥u¤£¹L¤j³¡¥÷¡u©âªÅ¡vªº¸Ü¡A¤w¸gÅܤF¤H¤H¦³¦@ÃѪº·N«ä¡C¦]¬°¤é±`¥Îªº²Å¸¹»y¨¥¡A¤j®a³£¸gÅç¹L¡Aª¾¨ì¬O¤°»ò¡C
¦Ü©ó«H¥õªº¶Ç¹F¡AªüÃäÓÃäӸܧAÅ¥¤Ñ¥D¬O¥þª¾ªº®ÉÔ¡A´N¬OÁ¿¤ñ§AÅ¥¤Ñ¥Dªº¤º¦b¥Í©R¡A§Ythe immanent God¡A¦Ó³oimmanence¥²©wn±q¸gÅ礤¥h¤F¸Ñ¡CÂ÷¶}¤F´N¨S¦³·N«ä¡A¤ñ¦p»¡¡G¤¤¥@¬ö¸³«ä°ª©M¦hº¿´µÅG½×¡A¦pªG¤H¨S¥Ç¸o¡A°ò·þ¬O§_ÁÙn¨Ó¡H©Î¥þ¯àªº¤Ñ¥D¬O§_¯à°µ¤@¶ôзh¤£°_ªº¥ÛÀY¡Kµ¥µ¥Â÷¶}¤F¸gÅç¦ý¤S·Qª½±µ½í¨ì¤Ñ¥Dªº¤º¦b¥Í©Rªº°ÝÃD¡C¤£¦pSimon§A¤]¸Õ¸Õ´À¥þª¾¥þ¯à¤U©w½×§a¡A¬Ý¬Ý¥þª¾¬O¦p¦ó¥þª¾¡A¥þ¯à¬O¦p¦ó¥þ¯à¡H¤Ñ¥D¦p¦ó¥þª¾¥þ¯à¤S»P§ASimon¤S¦³¦ó¤z¡H
©Ò¥H«ô¦«¤]¨S¦³¥Î¡A¦]¬°n°jÁתº¥¿¬O§Aªº°ÝÃD¾ÉP¥Ù¬Þªº®Ö¤ß©Ò¦b¡C§Aµwn¶¹L³o®Ö¤ß¡A§A¥u¯à¦b¥Ù¬Þ¤§¤¤:¥h±Æ°£(¤@)¥þª¾¤Ñ¥D¤£¬O·O·R¡A(¤G)¤Ñ¥D¬O·O·Rªº¦ý¤£¥þª¾¡A¦Ó¥h¦b¦Û§UÀ\¤¤¬D¿ï¦X¦Û¤vG¤fªº¬ü¹¡A(¤T)¤Ñ¥D¬O·O·Rªº¤]¯à¹wª¾¥¼¨Ó¡A§Y¨Ï¤H¦b¥Í®É¨S¦³Âk¨ÌÍ¢¡A¦º«áÁÙ¬O¦³¾÷·|®¬§ï¡K³Ì²×¤H¤H³£·|±o±Ï¡CµM¦Ó¡A«H¥õ¤£¥i¯à¬OÓ¤Hªº¡A¤]¤£¥i¯à¬O¦Y¦Û§UÀ\§a¡I
¤£³æ¥u§A·Qnconcreteªºµª®×¡AC¿q¦Û¤vªº·R®{·Qn¡A¥§V¼w¼¯·Qn¡Aªk§Q¶ë¤H·Qn¡A§å§P²]°üªº¸s²³·Qn¡K¡K³s¤T¦¸¸Õ±´C¿qªºÅ]°¤]·Qn¡C
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