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simon


Posted -
2003/5/11 ¤U¤È 11:11:18

Steve,

°ª¿³ª¾¹D§A¦³¿³½ì¬ã¨s³o­ÓÃD¥Ø¡C§A°Ý¦³¬Æ»ò²z¾Ú¤ä«ù¤H¤uÁ×¥¥¡A©Î³\§A¥i±q¤U­±´X­Ó¤è¦V±´°Q¡G

¤@¡B©Ê¥æªº·N¸q
§Ú»{¬°©Ê¥æ¦³¨â­Ó¥Øªº¡A¥]¬A¥Í¨|©M¼W¶i¤Ò°ü·P±¡¡]§Ú¥u¶°¤¤°Q½×²§©ÊÅÊ¡^¡C¦]¦¹¨S¦³¥Í¨|¥Øªºªº©Ê¥æ¡A¤]¦³»ù­È¡C

¤G¡B¦³¨ÇÃþ§Oªº¤H¨Ã¤£¾A¦X¥Î¦ÛµMÁ×¥¥ªk¡A¤ñ¦p¤V¤Ò¯è®ü¡A«ÜÃø±o¤~¦^®a¤@¦¸¡A¤S©Î¤ë¸g¤£³W«ßªº¤k©Ê¡C

¤T¡B¤H¤uÁ×¥¥©M¦ÛµMÁ×¥¥¡A¥Øªº¦P¬O´î§CÃh¥¥¾÷·|¡C¤H¤uÁ×¥¥ªº¨ä¤¤¤@ªk¬OÁ×¥¥®M¡F¦ÛµMÁ×¥¥ªk¥]¬A¥Î±´¼ö°w¡C¨âªÌ³£­n¥Î¡u¤£¦ÛµM¡vªº¤u¨ã¡A¬°¤°»ò±´¼ö°w·|¤ñÁ×¥¥®M§ó¹D¼w¡H¤§«e¤w»¡¤F¡A©Ê¥æªº¨ä¤¤¤@­Ó¥Øªº¬O¼W¶i·P±¡¡AÀ¹µÛÁ×¥¥®Mªº©Ê¥æ¡A¤]¦³»ù­È¡C

¥|¡B¦ÛµMªkªº¥¢±Ñ¾÷·|¸û¤H¤u¤èªk°ª¡A¹L«×¥Í¨|·|¥O¤÷¥À¦Y¤£®ø¡AÃø©ó°ö¨|¤U¤@¥N¡C

¤­¡B§Y¨Ï¯uªº»{¬°¦ÛµMÁ×¥¥ªk¦n¡A§Ú­Ì¬O§_­n§â¥¦©w©Ê¬°°ß¤@¥i¥Îªº¤èªk©O¡H¦Y³½¤ñ¦Y½Þ¦×¦³¯q¡A§Ú­Ì¬O§_´N­n³W©w¤H¥u¥i¦Y³½¡H

steve

ºÞ²z¤H­û


Posted -
2003/5/12 ¤W¤È 12:46:28

Á¤F¡C

³o¨Ç³£¦­¤w·Q¹L¤F¡A¬Otextbookªº¤Ï¤è·N¨£¡A¦ý¦p§A©Ò»¡¡A¬O¤@¯ëªºcommon sense argument¡A§@²`¤Jªº¤Ï¬Ù¬O¤£°÷ªº¡C¦]¬°¥u·|¬°¤ä«ùªÌ¶S¬°excuses¡C

§ÚÁö©M§A¤@¼Ë¡A¤£¦P·N±Ð·|¦³Ãö¤H¤uÁ×¥¥ªº°V¾É¡A¦ý§Ú¤Q¤À´L­«¦oªº½×ÂI¡A¦p¤£¯à¦b¦oªº¥D­n½×ÂI§ä¨ì¥i¥H¦A²`¤J°Q½×ªº¦a¤è¡A§A´N¨S¦³²z¥Ñ»¡¥L¬Oª~¦å¦a¤@¤M¤Á³B²z³o°ÝÃD¡G

¦pªG¥H«eªº²z¸Ñ¨S¿ù¡A±Ð·|ªº½×ÂI¤]¦³©³½u¡G
1.¤Ò°ü¤G¤Hªºµ²¦X¥²»Ý¤£¯à±Æ°£¥Í¨|
2.¥Í©Rªº³Ð³y¬OexclusivelyÄÝ©ó¤Ñ¥Dªº
3.¤H¤uÁ×¥¥¬O°í¨Mdeny God of such exclusive right
4.¦ÛµMÁ×¥¥¦b·N¹Ï¤W¬O©M¤H¤uÁ×¥¥¤@¯ë¡A¦ý¨S¦³completely deny God of such exclusive right.

¶i¸ô¥u¯à¬O¤£¶W¶V³o©³½u¡A§Aªºsuggestions¦b¼Æ¤d¸Uªº°Q½×¤¤¤£¥i¯àÀò±o¥ô¦ó§ïÅÜ¡C°£¤F²Ä¤@ÂI(¨ä¥L¤£¥i¯àºÞ¥Î)¡A¥u¦³¯àÃÒ©ú±Æ°£¥Í¨|ªº¤Ò°ü©Ê¥æ¨S¦³¦M®`¤Ñ¥Dªºexclisive right to procreation¡A¤~¬O¤Ï¹ïªºÀÆ¥ú¡C

steve

ºÞ²z¤H­û


Posted -
2003/5/12 ¤W¤È 01:09:53

§Ú¨S¦³¦A²`¤J¬ã¨s¡A¦ý§Ú§Æ±æ¯àargue¤Ò°ü¤G¤Hªº©Ê¥æ¤£¦ý¯à¥Nªí¤HÃþ¤H»P¤H¤§°Ý·Rªº·¥ÂI¡AÁÙ§ó¯à¹üÅ㯫¤H¤§¶¡ªº¤j·R¡C

That is to say,±qnegative side¥hargue doesnt stand much chance at all,(¦p°µ¦¨­t¾áetc)¡Athe only chance is to enhance the positive side of the arguement¡Gto stand on THEIR side and bring the argument even further than theirs.

¦pªG§A©ú¥Õ§Úªº¶i¸ô(¤£¬O¹ï»P¿ùªº°õµÛ)(§Ú¤@¶}©l¤w¤Tµf¥|¦¸±j½Õ)¡A©Î³\¤]¹ï§A¦³Ãö´¶¥@½×ªº«ä¦Ò¦³©ÒÀ°§U¡C

¦b³o»q¤]·Q³Ì«á¤@¦¸Á¿¡A§Ú§¹¥þ¤£¤¶·N§A»{¬°´¶¥@±o±ÏªºÁ¿ªk¡A¤j¦³¯«¾Ç®a¦³±MÃD¬ã¨s¡A¦ý¥²µM¤£¬Omultiple second chance³o¼Ëªºargument¡A¦]¬°³o»¡ªk¦pªG­n¦¨¥ß¡A´N¥²»Ý¬°¨ä¥L½ÒÃD¦]¦¹¦Ó±a¥Xªº·s°ÝÃD¤@¨Ã¸Ñ¨M¡C(¥¿¦p§Ú¥H«eªº´£°Ý¡A¤ÎÂk¤@ªº´£°Ý¡A¤£¬O¥H³s¦ê°ÝÃD¥h«d®z§A­ì¥»ªº°ÝÃDªº¤â¬q¡A¦Ó¬O·sªº°ÝÃD¦b¨ä¥L½ÒÃD¤¤ªº¥Ù¬Þ¡A¤£®e§A¤£¥h¸Ñ¨M)


steve

ºÞ²z¤H­û


Posted -
2003/5/12 ¤W¤È 10:43:28

Thanks to Simon who brought this up. And thanks also th Brother One who reminded me to re read "sex during pregnancy" and <¦ÛµM®a®x­p¹º¡D¤£¥¥´Áªº©Ê¥æ> discussions.

It is a lot of fun re-reading it and I found it one of the most enjoyable and healthy discussion, and as usual touch on the popular issue of Church teaching, and owner of truth and all that.


simon


Posted -
2003/5/12 ¤U¤È 09:18:41

Steve¡A

§A»¡¡G¡u¤H¤uÁ×¥¥¬O°í¨Mdeny God of such exclusive right¡F¦ÛµMÁ×¥¥¦b·N¹Ï¤W¬O©M¤H¤uÁ×¥¥¤@¯ë¡A¦ý¨S¦³completely deny God of such exclusive right.¡v

§Ú»{¬°¤£§¹¥þ¹ï¡C­ì¦]¦p¤U¡G
¤@¡B¨âªÌ·N¹Ï¤@¼Ë¡A¨S¹D²z¤£¿ï¤@ºØ¦¨®Ä¸û¤jªº¤èªk¡C
¤G¡B²z½×¤W©M¨Æ¹ê¤W¡A§¡ÃÒ©ú¤H¤uÁ×¥¥ªk¨Ã¤£¬O¦Ê¤À¦Êªº¤èªk¡A¦]¦¹¥i¥H»¡¡u¨S¦³completely deny God of such exclusive right¡v¡C

¦pªG±q¥¿­±ªº¨¤«×·Q¡A¦³®ÄªºÁ×¥¥±¹¬I¡A¬O¹ï²{¦³®a®x¦¨­ûªº¤@ºØ­t³d¥ôºA«×ªºªí²{¡A¬O·Rªºªí²{¡C

¦³¤@­Ó½×ÂI¡]¬O²{¾¯«¤÷»¡ªº¡^¡A¥iµ¹§A°Ñ¦Ò¡G
±Ð·|­n¨D©Ò¦³±Ð¤Í¨Ï¥Î¦ÛµMÁ×¥¥ªk¡A¦pªG±Ð¤Í¯uªº¥Î¤F¡A¦ý¦³¦h¤H¥¢±Ñ¡A¦]¦Ó¥Í¤F«Ü¦h«Ä¤l¡A±Ð·|¬O¤£¬OÀ³¸ÓµL­­¶q¦a´£¨Ñ¤ä½w¡]¥]¬A¸gÀÙ©Mºë¯«¤W¡^©O¡H¦pªG±Ð·|¯à§@¥X³o¼Ëªº«OÃÒ¡A¥þ¥Á¨Ï¥Î¦ÛµMÁ×¥¥ªk¬O¥i¥Hªº¡C§_«h¦b²{¤µªº­»´ä¡A¦pªG¤V¤Ò¤ë¤J¤G¸U¡A¥¿¨Ñ¼Ó¡A©d¤l¤£¯à¥~¥X¤u§@¡A¦]­n·ÓÅU¤»­Ó«Ä¤l¡A¬O«Ü§xÃøªº¡C

¯«¾Ç²z½×©TµM­«­n¡A¦ý¯«¾Ç©M¥Í¬¡²{¹ê¬O¤£¯à¤À¶}ªº¡C¦pªG¥uÅU¯«¾Ç²z½×¦Ó©¿µø²{¹ê¡A¦n¤ñÂå¥Í«Å¥¬¤â³N¦¨¥\¦ý¯f¤H¦º¤F¡C

steve

ºÞ²z¤H­û


Posted -
2003/5/12 ¤U¤È 10:00:40

Yes, with regard to "Contraception vs NFP", I think the argument for the Church is very very weak. Many regard this "suggestion" of NFP as an alternative (or a better way) to avoid conception is A MAJOR DISASTER.

¦b±Ð·|¥¼¡u´£¥X¡vNFP¤§«e¡A¬Û«H¦b¤Ñ¥Dªº³Ð¥Í¨¤«×ªº½T«ÜÃø§ä¨ì®e³\¤HÁ×¥¥ªº²z¥Ñ¡A¦]¬°¦o¥u­n§â¤Ñ¥D©¹¤U¤@À£¡A¤j®a³£µL¸Ü¥i»¡¡A¦Û¦nºÉ¶q¿í¦u¡C

±Ð·|¼¦¼§¥@¤Hªº¤£®e¸mºÃ¡A¦o¤]µ´«D¤£ª¾¹D«Ä¤l¬°®a®x±a¨Óªº­t¾á¡C¥i¬O¡A¦o¤@suggest NFP¤§«á¡A´N¤j¤j´î§C¤F¨ä»¡ªA¥h¡C·t¥Ü¤F¥¥¥i¥HÁפ§¤jªù¡A¥Ñµ´¹ï°hÅý¨ì¬Û¹ï¤F¡C

­n±q¥Í©R­Û²zªº¨¤«×¥h°Q½×¡A¦³«Ý¬ì§Þ¤Wªº·s¬ð¯}¡C©Ò¥H¯«¾Ç¤W¥i¥H°Q½×¨ìªº¥u¥i¥H¬O±q¡u¤Ò°ü¤G¤Hªºµ²¦X=·R+¥Í¨|¡v³o¤è­±µÛ¤â¡A¦b³o±ø¥ó¤W°µ¤å³¹¤~¦³¥X¸ô¡C³æ±q¥Í¬¡¡A¸gÀÙ¨¤«×¥h¬Ý«K«ÜÃø¦³¶i®i¡C(¦p¥Í¤F´X¦h¹L¤~¥iÁ×¥¥¡A¤S©Î¸gÀÙ§xÃø¥i¥HÁסA¦³¿ú¥i¤£¥i¥H©O¡H)

¤@¹ï°@¸Ûµ½¨}·R¥D·R¤H·R±Ð·|ªº¤Ò°ü¡A¨|¦³¦h¦W¤l¤k¡A¦ý®a®x¸gÀÙ¦³§xÃø¡AÁÙ°í«ù±Ð·|°V¾É¡A©Úµ´Á×¥¥¡C¥i¬O¤G¤H¨C¦¸©Ð¨Æ¡A§¡¤ßÅå•e¸õ¡AÁÙ¯àªí¹F¤Ò°üªº·R¶Ü¡HÄY­«ªº¤À¤ÀÄÁ±B«Ã¯}¸H¡A¤]¤£¬OµL¥i¯à¡C¤G¤H¬°¤F·R¥D·R±Ð·|¡Aµ²ªGÄ묹¤Ò°üªº·R......

edward


Posted -
2003/5/12 ¤U¤È 11:31:47

¨ä¹ê³o¦³Ãö¡u¤H¤uÁ×¥¥¡vªº°ÝÃD¡A¤j®a¤@¨â¦~«e³£°Q½×¹L¡C¹L¤F³o¨Ç¤é¤l¡A²{¦b­«·Å¤@¤U¥çı±o´X¦³·N«ä¡C

ÆJµM¶¡·Q°_¤Fªù®{¹ï¥D­C¿qªº»¡¸Ü¡G¡u¤H¦P©d¤lªºÃö«Y¡A¦pªG¬O³o¼Ë¡A­Ë¤£¦p¤£°ùªº¦n¡v¡]º¿¤Q¤E10¡^¡C

¹ï·í®ÉªºµS¤Ó¤H¨Ó»¡¡A¥O¥L­Ì¸Ò²§ªº¬O¥D­C¿q¹ï©ó¥ð©dªººA«×¡F¬°²{¤µªº¤Ñ¥D±Ð®{¨Ó»¡¡A¥O§Ú­Ì§x´bªº¬O±Ð·|¹ï¤H¤uÁ×¥¥ªº±Ð¾É¡C

edward


Posted -
2003/5/12 ¤U¤È 11:45:48

±q±`ÃѪº¨¤«×¬Ý¡A¦Ê¤À¦Ê¦³®Äªº¡uÁ×¥¥¡v¤èªk¬O¡u­ø°µ¡v¡C¦ýÁ×¥¥¤@µüªº©w¸q«h¤w¥]§t¤F¤S­n°µ¡e·R¡f¡A¤S­ø­n¦³BBªº·N«ä¡C

¦b³o«ä¸ô¤U¡A¦Ê¤À¦Ê¦³®ÄªºÁ×¥¥¡Aªº½T¬O¦³µÛ¥¦ªº³Ì«á¨¾½u¡A´N¬O¹ï¼Z­L©M±þÀ¦ªº¤ä«ù¡C«eªÌ¤w¨ü¨ì¡u¥@½Ã¡v©M­»´ä«Ü¦h¤Hªº¤ä«ù©M¹ê¦æ¡A¦Ó«áªÌ«h¦b¬Y¨Ç°ê®a¿n·¥Ä­ÆC¤¤¡CµM¦Ó¨âªÌªº°Ê¾÷¡A°Z¤£¥ç¥i¥H¬O¥X©ó¹ï¡u¤Ò©d¶¡·R±¡ªº­«µø¡v¡A¤Î¡u¹ï®a®x²{¦³¦¨­ûªº­t³d¡v¡H

edward


Posted -
2003/5/13 ¤W¤È 12:09:30

¸t­Y±æ©v®{»¡¹L¡G¡u¦pªG§Ú­Ì»¡§Ú­Ì¨S¦³¸o¹L¡A´N¬O´ÛÄF¦Û¤v¡A¯u²z¤]¤£¦b§Ú­Ì¤º¡v¡]­Y¤@8¡^¡C¦b¬Yµ{«×¤W¡A§Ú­Ì¨C¦ì¦b¥Í¬¡³£¤´µM¬O¨üµÛ¸o´cªº²o²Ì¡C

´N©Ê¸o¨Ó»¡¡A§Ú­Ì¤¤¦³­þ´X¦ì¤£´¿¦³¹L¯Ê¥¢©O¡H¤£½×¤w±B¥¼±B¡A¨C¦ì¥S§Ì©n©f³£¦³¦U¦Û­n­±¹ïªº¬D¾Ô¡B©¹©¹³£¦³³n®z¹Lªº®É¨è¡C³o©Î³\¤£³æ³æ¬O¤H¤uÁ×¥¥§@¬°¤@­Ó½ÒÃD¨º»ò²³æ§a¡H

·íµM¦b³o¸Ì»Ý­n±j½Õ¡G±Ð·|«ÅºÙ¤H¤uÁ×¥¥¬°¤£¹D¼w¡A¨Ã¤£¬O¬°¤F¼W¥[¤j®aªº¸o´c·P¡C¦ý¤Ï¹L¨Ó«ä¦Ò¡G·í¤H¨I½q©ó¬Y¨Ç¤p¹L¥¢¦Ó¥O¸oªº·NÃÑ´î®z¡A¬Æ¦Ü§_»{¥¦¬°¸o¡A±q¦Ó§_©w¡u¬Ô¨Ì¡vªº¥²­n®É¡A·|¤£·|¬O¤Ï¬MµÛ§ó¤jªº°ÝÃD©M«H¥õ¦M¾÷¡H

steve

ºÞ²z¤H­û


Posted -
2003/5/13 ¤W¤È 12:51:05

§¹¥þ¦P·NEdward¡C¦ý¨ä¥L½ÒÃD(¦p¼Z­L)¨S¦³¤H¤uÁ×¥¥¨º¼Ë§xÃø¡A¦]¬°±Ð·|³z¹LNPF­º¥ýÀq³\¤F¡uÁסv¤£¬O°ÝÃD°Ú¡I

¤ñ°_¤W¦~¡A¤µ¤Ñ§Ú§ó¯à©ú¥ÕªªªÌ¤Á±æ¤H¦¨¸tªº­W¤ß¡Arevisit³oÃD¥Ø¤]¬O¤@­Ó¤Ï¬Ù¦Û¤v¦p¦ó¬Ý»P¥D»P¤H»P±Ð·|ªºÃö«Y¡C§Ú·Q§Ú¾ãÅé¬O¦P·N±Ð·|¤Ï¹ï¤H¤uÁ×¥¥ªº²z¾Ú¡A¥u¬O¦o¹ïNFPªºhard sell¤£³æÅý¤ä«ù¤H¤uÁ×¥¥ªÌ¥´¶}¤F¤Ï¹ï±Ð·|ªº²z¥Ñ¡A©Ò¥H·Pı¤W§Î¶Õ¥i¯à¯uªº¦u¤£¤F¡CÃöÁä¦b©ócontraception©MNFP¦b·N¹Ï¤W¦P¬O¦³µÛ¡uÁסvªº¥Øªº¡C

¦ý¥i±¤ªº©l²×¬O¡G¦Û¥H¬°²¦¥Í°@¸Û·R¥D·R¤H¼ö¤ß·R±Ð·|ªº¤Ò°ü¡A¥u¦]¬°¤£·Q¦A¦h¥Í«Ä¤l¡A´N¦¨¤F¦Û¨p¦Û§Q·R¦Û¤v¦h¹L·R¤Ñ¥D·R±Ð·|ªºÃÒ¾Ú¡AÅܦ¨¤F¥u·R¤Ò°üªºÅw®T¦Ó©Úµ´¤Ñ¥Dªº³Ð¥Íªº¸o¤H¡A¥L­Ì¯à§_±µ¨ü¡C

(1)¦³¤S½Ö¯à¦³¸ê®æ»¡³o¹ï¡u¸o¤H¤Ò°ü¡v¹ï¤Ñ¥Dªº·R¤@©w¤Ö©ó©^¦æNPFªº¤Ò°ü¡H
(2)¦³¤S½Ö¯à¦³¸ê®æ»¡³o¹ï¡u¸o¤H¤Ò°ü¡v¤G¤Hªº·R¤@©w¤Ö©ó©^¦æNPFªº¤Ò°ü¡H
(3)¦³¤S½Ö¯à¦³¸ê®æ»¡³o¹ï¡u¸o¤H¤Ò°ü¡vªºÁ×¥¥·N¹Ï¤@©w¤j©ó©^¦æNPFªº¤Ò°ü¡H
and so on and so on...

´N¬O³o¼Ë¡A­ü¡I

steve

ºÞ²z¤H­û


Posted -
2003/5/13 ¤W¤È 09:31:04

Only this may have some problems : "¦b³o«ä¸ô¤U¡A¦Ê¤À¦Ê¦³®ÄªºÁ×¥¥¡Aªº½T¬O¦³µÛ¥¦ªº³Ì«á¨¾½u¡A´N¬O¹ï¼Z­L©M±þÀ¦ªº¤ä«ù¡C......°Z¤£¥ç¥i¥H¬O¥X©ó¹ï¡u¤Ò©d¶¡·R±¡ªº­«µø¡v¡A¤Î¡u¹ï®a®x²{¦³¦¨­ûªº­t³d¡v¡H "

Contraception is to prevent something that has not yet happened from happening, Abortion is to stop something that is already happened.

¹ï®a®x²{¦³¦¨­ûªº­t³dcannot be the reason to kill life (although some choose not to see abortion as killing).

So it would not be advisable to bring the two discussions (contraception and abortion) together.

edward


Posted -
2003/5/13 ¤U¤È 12:32:54

¤p§Ì·íµM²z¸ÑÁ×¥¥©M¼Z­L¤Î±þÀ¦¤§¶¡ªº¤À§O¡C

¦b²{¤µªÀ·|¡AÁ×¥¥¥u¬O¡u¸`¨|¡vªº¤@Àô¡C¥¦¤£¬O±`³Q¤H¥s§@¡ubirth¡vcontrol¶Ü¡H

edward


Posted -
2003/5/13 ¤U¤È 12:41:55

¥v´£¤Ò¥S©Ò»¡¡G¡uContraception is to prevent something that has not yet happened from happening, Abortion is to stop something that is already happened.¡v

¡u¶}©lµo¥Í¡vªº¨Æ¡A­nµø¥G¦b»¡¬Æ»ò¡C¨Ò¦p¡A¦b©Ê¥æ¤¤¡A¤H»P¤Ñ¥D¤@°_³Ð³y¥Í©R¡Ahappenedªº¬O¤H¥Í©Rªº§Î¦¨¹Lµ{¡Ai.e. something has already been at work¡C¦ý not yet happened ªº«h¬O¤H¥Í©Rªº§Î¦¨¡C

§Ú¥i¤£¥i¥H®M¥Î¥v´£¤Ò¥Sªº»¡¸Ü¡A¥h¬°¼Z­L§@¥X¥­¤Ï¡H

¡uAbortion is to prevent something that has not yet happened [i.e. extrauterine life]from happening; Infanticide is to stop something that is already happened¡v

steve

ºÞ²z¤H­û


Posted -
2003/5/13 ¤U¤È 02:46:05

Ah yah, thats how edgy things can really be - a small twist can turn easily turn around the argument.

edward


Posted -
2003/5/13 ¤U¤È 03:56:21

¦b¤HÃþ¤´¥¼ª¾¹D¤k©Êªº¥Í²z©P´Á­ì¨Ó¥i¤À¬°fertile©Minfertile¤§«e¡A®Ú¥»´N¤£¦s¦b©Ò¿×¡uNFP¡vªº°ÝÃD¡C·í®É°ß¤@ªº¡uNFP¡v´N¬Ocoitus interruptus¡C·íµM¡A³oºØ¤èªk¬O±Ð·|©Ò¤Ï¹ïªº¡C

¦b¤k©Ê¥Í¨|¦~ÄÖ¡]reproductive age¡^¤ºªºÃh¥¥´Á¡]§Ú«üªº¬Opregnancy¡^©M¥Í¨|¦~ÄÖ¥~ªº§ó¦~´Á¡A§¡¬O·í®É¤wª¾ªº¡uinfertile periods¡v¡C¦ý«ö¤p§Ìªº²z¸Ñ¡A¾¨ºÞ¸t¨Èº¸ÂׯÁ«ù¬Û¤Ï·N¨£¡A¦ý±Ð·|«o¦ü¥G¨Ã¨S¦³Äþ³d¹L¦b³o¨Ç¤£¥¥®É´Á¶i¦æªº©Ê¥æ¡C

edward


Posted -
2003/5/13 ¤U¤È 04:08:00

¡ucompletely deny God of such exclusive right¡v¡A³o¥y¸Ü¬O§_¥Nªí±Ð·|¹ï¤H¤uÁ×¥¥ªº¥ß³õ¡H

©Ò¿×ªº¡uexclusive right¡v¬O«ü¬Æ»ò©O¡H¦èº¡¥S©Ò«üªº¡u¦Ê¤À¦Ê¡e¦w¥þÁ×¥¥¡H¡fªº¤èªk¡v¬O¤£¬O´N§_©w¤F¤Ñ¥Dªº³o¤@Åv§Q¡H¬O§_«D¦Ê¤À¦Êªº¤èªk¡A´N¤£§_©wÍ¢ªºÅv§Q¤F¡H

«ö¤p§Ìªº²z¸Ñ¡A±Ð·|¤Ï¹ï¦b¥i¥¥´Áµo¥Í©Ê¦æ¬°®É±Ä¨ú¾É­P­°§C¦¨¥¥¾÷·|ªº¥ô¦óÁ×¥¥¤èªk¡A¤£½×¸Ó¤èªk¬O§_¦Ê¤À¤§¦Ê¡u¦w¥þ¡v¡FµM¦Ó¡A§Y¨Ï¦b¦Ê¤À¦Ê½T©w¤£¥¥ªº®É´Áµo¥Í©Ê¦æ¬°¡A«h¥¼¨ü¨ì±Ð·|ªºÄþ³d¡C

steve

ºÞ²z¤H­û


Posted -
2003/5/13 ¤U¤È 04:36:01

Hi Ed, does it follow that NFP is fitting perfectly into this comfort zone?

simon


Posted -
2003/5/14 ¤W¤È 12:36:38

Edward,

You say, 'µM¦Ó¡A§Y¨Ï¦b¦Ê¤À¦Ê½T©w¤£¥¥ªº®É´Áµo¥Í©Ê¦æ¬°¡A«h¥¼¨ü¨ì±Ð·|ªºÄþ³d'

The real fact is that there is not period that is really 100% safe. It is a matter of probability. In 'safe period', the chance of getting pregnant is very very small. In 'unsafe period', the chance of getting pregnant is high.
That explains why some couples practised natural brith control extremely carefully and yet they get pregnant.

So your saying '¦b¦Ê¤À¦Ê½T©w¤£¥¥ªº®É´Áµo¥Í©Ê¦æ¬°¡A«h¥¼¨ü¨ì±Ð·|ªºÄþ³d'is not justified.


Simon

edward


Posted -
2003/5/14 ¤W¤È 12:49:33

¦èº¡¥S¡A¬Ý¨Ó§A»~¸Ñ¤F§Úªº·N«ä¤F¡C

§Úªº·N«ä¬O»¡¡G±Ð·|°V¾É¤§©Ò¥H¤£Äþ³d¤£¥¥´Áªº©Ê¥æ¡A¨Ã«D¦]¬°¥¦ªº¡u«D¦Ê¤À¦Ê¦w¥þ©Ê¡v¡Ð¡Ð¦Ó¦b³o¨à¦³¤H±N¡u¦Ê¤À¦Ê¦w¥þ©Ê¡v²z¸Ñ¬°¡ucompletely deny God's exclusive right¡v¡C©Ò¥H§Ú´£¥X¤F¤@­Ó²z½×¤Wªº±¡ªp¡A§Y¡G¦bµ´¹ï½T©w¤£¥¥´Á¡]§Y¦Ê¤À¦Ê¡u¦w¥þ¡v¡^ªº±¡ªp¤U¶i¦æ©Ê¥æ¡A±Ð·|°V¾É¥ç¤£Äþ³d¡C

steve

ºÞ²z¤H­û


Posted -
2003/5/14 ¤W¤È 01:32:24

¦pªG§AÁ¿ªº¬O³oÂIªº¸Ü¡A¨º´N¬O§Ú©ÒÁ¿ªº¡G

4.¦ÛµMÁ×¥¥¦b·N¹Ï¤W¬O©M¤H¤uÁ×¥¥¤@¯ë¡A¦ý¨S¦³completely deny God of such exclusive right.

¨º»ò±Ð·|¬°¦óhard sell NFD¦Ó condemn contraception?
Where is the selling point?


edward


Posted -
2003/5/14 ¤W¤È 08:37:01

­Y¤Hªº¥Í¨|¯à¤O¬O¤Ñ¥Dªº®¦½ç¡A¨º»ò§Ú­Ì¦b¯à¤O½d³ò¤º¦³³d¥ô»P¥¦¦X§@¡A©Î¦Ü¤Ö¤£»P¥¦§@¹ï¡C

¤k©Ê¤§¦³¥i¥¥´Á¤Î¤£¥¥´Á¡A¬O¤Ñ¥D³Ð³y¤HÅé¡B¨Ã¥ý©ó¤H·N§Ó©Ò¥i¥H¨M©wªº¥Í²z³W«ß¡A¥ç¬O¤k©Ê¨­Å骺¤@³¡¤À¡C­Y¦b¤£¥¥´Á¤¤¶i¦æ©Ê¥æ¡A¤Î¦b¥i¥¥´Á¤º¤£©Ê¥æ¨Ó¹F­PÁ×¥¥ªº¥Øªº¡]°²©wÁ×¥¥ªº°Ê¾÷¬°¥¿½T¡^¡A¨º»ò¡A¨k¤k©Ê¥æ®É¡A§Y¨Ïºë¤l¦³¥i¯à¥Ã»·¥¼¯à¹J¨ì§Z¤l¡A¦ýÂù¤è³£¥u¬O»P³o­Ó¤Ñ¥D©Ò³Ð³yªº³W«ß¦X§@¡AI accept it (my "infertility" of my wife here and now) as part of herself¡A¬G¦¹¨Ã¤£¬O»P¥Í¨|¯à¤O¡u§@¹ï¡v¡C

¦ýÁaÆ[±Ð·|©ÒÄþ³dªº¦UºØÁ×¥¥¤èªk¡G¦p¤¤Â_©Ê¥æ¡BÁ×¥¥®M¡B¤l®cÀô¡BÁ×¥¥¤Y¡Bµ´¨|¤â³N¡A¨ä¥Ø¼Ð³£¤£¥~¥G¡G¡]¤@¡^­n¦b©Ê¦æ¬°¤¤¡Aªýêºë¤l»P§Z¤lªº¦ÛµM¬Û¹J¡F¡]¤G¡^´î§C¨k¤kÂù¤èªº¥Í¨|¯à¤O¡C

¹ï©ó²Ä¤@ÂI¡A³o´N¦p¥v´£¤Ò¥S¥ý«e©Ò»¡ªº¡G¡uto stop something that has already happened¡v¡F¦Ó²Ä¤GÂI¡A«h¬O·í¤Hªº¥Í¨|¯à¤O¬O¤@ºØ¡u¯e¯f¡v¡A¦Ó«D¤Ñ¥Dªº®¦½ç¡C

edward


Posted -
2003/5/14 ¤U¤È 08:06:14

ªp¥B¡A¹ï©ó­è¤~©Ò°Q½×ªº¡ucompletely deny God of his exclusive right¡v¡A¤p§Ì¹ï¨ä¹ê½è·N¸q¬O¤´¥¼²M·¡ªº¡C«ö·Ó¥ý«e°Q½×ªº¥Î¦r¤èªk¡A¤p§Ì±N¥¦²z¸Ñ¬°¡G¥v´£¤Ò¥S»{¬°¦b¤Ò°ü©Ê¥æ¤¤¡A¤Ñ¥D¦³¨ä¤£¥i¹°¶VªºÅv§Q¡]exclusive right¡^¥h³Ð³y¥Í©R¡C­Y¦b©Ê¦æ¬°¤¤¨Ï¥Î¡u¦Ê¤À¦Ê¦w¥þ¡vªºÁ×¥¥¤èªk¡A´N¬O¹ï§¹¥þ¦a«I¥Ç¤Ñ¥Dªº¦¹¤@Åv§Q¡H

¤p§Ì´N¬O¦b¤W¤å¤¤¡A´N¬Oargue¦b¤£¥¥´Á¤ºªº©Ê¥æ¡A¨Ã«D¹ï¤Ñ¥D¦¹¤@Åv§Qªº«I¥Ç¡C

edward


Posted -
2003/5/14 ¤U¤È 09:18:46

¦èº¡¥S¹Á¨¥¡G

¡u¦³¤@­Ó½×ÂI¡]¬O²{¾¯«¤÷»¡ªº¡^¡A¥iµ¹§A°Ñ¦Ò¡G
±Ð·|­n¨D©Ò¦³±Ð¤Í¨Ï¥Î¦ÛµMÁ×¥¥ªk¡A¦pªG±Ð¤Í¯uªº¥Î¤F¡A¦ý¦³¦h¤H¥¢±Ñ¡A¦]¦Ó¥Í¤F«Ü¦h«Ä¤l¡A±Ð·|¬O¤£¬OÀ³¸ÓµL­­¶q¦a´£¨Ñ¤ä½w¡]¥]¬A¸gÀÙ©Mºë¯«¤W¡^©O¡H¦pªG±Ð·|¯à§@¥X³o¼Ëªº«OÃÒ¡A¥þ¥Á¨Ï¥Î¦ÛµMÁ×¥¥ªk¬O¥i¥Hªº¡C§_«h¦b²{¤µªº­»´ä¡A¦pªG¤V¤Ò¤ë¤J¤G¸U¡A¥¿¨Ñ¼Ó¡A©d¤l¤£¯à¥~¥X¤u§@¡A¦]­n·ÓÅU¤»­Ó«Ä¤l¡A¬O«Ü§xÃøªº¡C¡v

§Ú¦b³o¸Ì°O°_¥D­C¿q´¿¸g»¡¹L¡G¡u¤£½×½Ö¡A­Y¤£­IµÛ¦Û¤vªº¤Q¦r¬[¡A¦b§Ú«á­±¨«¡A¤£¯à°µ§Úªºªù®{¡C§A­Ì¤¤¶¡½ÖÄ@·N«Ø³y¤@®y¶ð¡A¦Ó¤£¥ý§¤¤UÄwºâ¶O¥Î¡A¬O§_¦³¤O§¹¦¨©O¡H§K±o¥L³þ°ò¥H«á¡A³º¤£¯à§¹¤u¡A©Ò¦³¬Ý¨£ªº¤H³£­nÃÕ»¦¥L»¡¡G³o­Ó¤H¶}©l«Ø³y¡A¦Ó¤£¯à§¹¤u¡C¡v¡]¸ô¤Q¥|27-30¡^

¨ä¹ê¦bµ²±B¤§«e¡A¨C¦ì±Ð¤Í¨ä¹ê¤£³£À³¸Ó¦³µÛ¬Û·íªº¹wºâ¶Ü¡H­Y¬O·íªìª¾¹D«ö¦Û¤vªº¯à¤O¡AµLªk§¹¦¨¾i¨|¤l¤kªº¥ô°È¡A¨º»ò·íªì¤S¦ó¥²­nµ²±B©O¡H

¦³¤H¦]¬°¤£¯à·ÓÅU¤»­Ó«Ä¤l¦Ó¿ï¾ÜÁ×¥¥¡AÁ×¥¥¤£¦¨¥\«h¶i¤@¨B¥h¼Z­L¡C§Ú¤£±Æ°£¦³¤H»{¬°¼Z­L¬O¡u°e«Ä¤l¤W¤Ñ°ó¡A¬°¦ó©ñ¥L­Ì¦b³o¥@¬É¨ü­W¨ü¸o¡H¡v¡A¦ý¨âªÌªº°ÝÃD¬O¤£¯à¤À¶}ªº¡A¦]¬°¿ð¦­»Ý­n­±¹ï³o­Ó°ÝÃD¡C

edward


Posted -
2003/5/14 ¤U¤È 09:42:30

¥v´£¤Ò¥S»¡¡G

¡u¦ý¥i±¤ªº©l²×¬O¡G¦Û¥H¬°²¦¥Í°@¸Û·R¥D·R¤H¼ö¤ß·R±Ð·|ªº¤Ò°ü¡A¥u¦]¬°¤£·Q¦A¦h¥Í«Ä¤l¡A´N¦¨¤F¦Û¨p¦Û§Q·R¦Û¤v¦h¹L·R¤Ñ¥D·R±Ð·|ªºÃÒ¾Ú¡AÅܦ¨¤F¥u·R¤Ò°üªºÅw®T¦Ó©Úµ´¤Ñ¥Dªº³Ð¥Íªº¸o¤H¡A¥L­Ì¯à§_±µ¨ü¡C¡v

¨ä¹ê·Q²`¤@¼h¡A­Y¯u­n§ä¡u¦Û¨p¦Û§Q·R¦Û¤v¦h¹L·R¤Ñ¥D¡vªºÃÒ¾Ú¡A¤S¦ó¥²­n§ä¨ì¤H¤uÁ×¥¥ªº¥÷¨à©O¡H¸tµú¦³¨¥¡G¡u­Y§A­n²Ó¹î¤Hªº¸o·^¡A¥D°Ú¡I¦³½ÖÁٯ௸±o¦í©O¡H¡v¡A¦ý¬è몺¤H¥ß¨è±µµÛÆg¬ü¤Ñ¥D¡G¡uµM¦Ó§A«o´I©ó¤¯·O¼e®¤¡A§Ú­Ì¹ï§A°_·q°_·R¡v¡C¡]°Ñ¾\¸tµú²Ä¤@¦Ê¤T¤Q½g¡^

simon


Posted -
2003/5/17 ¤U¤È 11:46:38

Edward,

§Aªº´£°Ý¥O§Ú·P¨ì·N¥~¡C

§A°Ý¡G¡u¨ä¹ê¦bµ²±B¤§«e¡A¨C¦ì±Ð¤Í¨ä¹ê¤£³£À³¸Ó¦³µÛ¬Û·íªº¹wºâ¶Ü¡H­Y¬O·íªìª¾¹D«ö¦Û¤vªº¯à¤O¡AµLªk§¹¦¨¾i¨|¤l¤kªº¥ô°È¡A¨º»ò·íªì¤S¦ó¥²­nµ²±B©O¡H¡v

§A¬O§_µ¥©ó»¡¡G¡u¤£¥´ºâ¥Í¨|ªº¨k¤k¡A´N¤£À³µ²±B¡C¡v§Ú·Q¥ý§Ë²M·¡§Aªº·Qªk¤~Ä~Äò»¡¤U¥h¡C

§A¤S»¡¡G¡u¦³¤H¦]¬°¤£¯à·ÓÅU¤»­Ó«Ä¤l¦Ó¿ï¾ÜÁ×¥¥¡AÁ×¥¥¤£¦¨¥\«h¶i¤@¨B¥h¼Z­L¡C§Ú¤£±Æ°£¦³¤H»{¬°¼Z­L¬O°e«Ä¤l¤W¤Ñ°ó¡A¬°¦ó©ñ¥L­Ì¦b³o¥@¬É¨ü­W¨ü¸o¡H¦ý¨âªÌªº°ÝÃD¬O¤£¯à¤À¶}ªº¡A¦]¬°¿ð¦­»Ý­n­±¹ï³o­Ó°ÝÃD¡C ¡v

Á×¥¥©M¼Z­L¡A¬O¨â¥ó¨Æ±¡¡A¤£À³²V¬°¤@½Í¡C§Ú¬Û«H¤j¦h¼Æ±Ð¤ÍÃÙ¦¨Á×¥¥¡A¤Ï¹ï¼Z­L¡C

Simon

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