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jedi
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Posted -
2002/9/18 上午 01:55:52
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在另一議題「香港教區」中的「也談堂區神父」，steve提到教友擔當牧職很有神學基礎，更有深遠的傳統！我希望另闢「教友牧職的發展」作新議題，把討論抽離堂區神父的評價。
教會初期的職務和功能都沒有明確地被界定，也沒有職務的任命儀式，只有長老一職務是由一些有德行的長輩擔任。當時的團體是藉著聖神去辨認和肯定「有神恩者」，由這些人來為團體服務。所以職務本來就不是神職的專利，而是教友自行認定！
經歷數世紀教會得以壯大，更借用了地方管治架構的模式，來管治天主的子民。歷史的進程肯定了管和治的單向模式，幾位偉大教宗的出現不單鞏固了教會的組織，把權力集中，聖俗之間的分野更明顯。重視教會有形可見的一面的士林神學把聖俗之分野進一步拉闊。聖統抽離了世界，神職在世界之上，教會難以和世人並肩。
梵二的開放，宗教知識的普及，新的教會觀，意識到唯有把神職壟斷職務的局面打破，教會才可邁向其完滿。一些實際的現象：如聖召的低落，神職的缺乏等，再度打開了教友直接參與教會職務的途徑。但是仍有很多方面需要神職的允許才可執行，教友參與教會職務的空間似乎受了很大的限制，怕且教友牧職只能是紙上談兵吧了！
我們香港的教區不乏熱心服務堂區者(如CC)和有識之士(如Josemaria)，他們又如何看「教友牧職在香港的發展」呢？
天主教會的強項就是「一」而「多」，「多」中又是「一」，但看「也談堂區神父」中的討論，堂區的服務豈不是「一」容不下「多」，因為「多」的存在令一些人默然離去。這就像基督教會一樣，這家不好，過另一家教會就是了，沒法歸一？
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Cecil
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Posted -
2002/9/18 上午 10:26:50
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這是十分嚴正的命題,因為眼可見的,是教會的牧民重擔已不可能全放在神職的身上。這情況可說是港教區將必要面對的新挑戰。
信眾的'聖化' - 培育 + 實踐,一定要大力推動才成,就如教會在過去的五年,落了不少'本'推動公教社會訓導一般。但這次重點,是'關心福傳'。談福傳數十年,連傳的'內容'也不清不楚,參與教會/堂區工作'得個做'字 - to do and not to be,對信友的聖化根本起不了作用。馬利亞和馬爾大的做事,人人都很明白了。
參與堂區服務,一測水溫,就知道人人當玩,根本不重視'工作'的內涵,方向全失,才會招徠一大群良莠不齊的在俗'話事人'!
多人讀神學,進修聖經,是很好的開始,但願本堂們能夠放開心懷重用肯花時間自我信仰增值的信友!
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Josemaria
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Posted -
2002/9/18 上午 10:36:18
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I think we need effective administration to go about this suggestion of Cecil.
The Studium Biblicanum (spelling may be incorrect), Opus Dei, the Loyola Society, 'Jiao Yan Zhong Xin" and many other religious orders/organisations are offering quality 'training' for the faithful, apart from H.S.S., who is of course taking the lead in the Diocese.
Propaganda, and a 'structured' approach may be necessary - some time ago, I noticed that when Lent/Advent approaches, retreats, courses, talks,speeches, seminars, all 'clashed' badly with each other. Often I heard faithfuls say - I wish to attend xyz, but abc's also taking place, so I'd only go to abc...
At a time when resources are so scarse, it does appear to be an awful waste!
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Cecil
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Posted -
2002/9/18 下午 03:58:03
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且回到教會'一而多','多而一'的問題:
'理想'是如此 - 肢體雖多,身體只有一個。然而歷史告訴我們,裂教的事實一再發生,更可以說,無日無之!比方說,意見不同,互不相讓(或更惡劣者,互不溝通),各自堅持,分裂的源頭,來自人的自我不能滿足。
烏托邦是如一哥所言,團體之間和而不同,互相欣賞,互相包容。不是說沒有這樣的團體;肯定是有的,當一個團體成員和成員之間的感情,到了血濃於水的境界,肯定會發生。這一定先要經過相當的鍊歷,但可否維持,還看各成員靈修上進度。參差不齊的靈修程度的確很難使所有的人達成'共融'。這恐怕也不是勉強可為的事。
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steve
管理人員
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Posted -
2002/9/18 下午 04:51:48
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So is "Lay Ministry" going to work?
Nowadays, You could not expect every member of a congregation to have the same level of maturity. Our parisheners all have diversify background. How can this diversity be contained in the same oneness? Without this, Lay ministry can only exist on paper as Jedi put it.
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Cecil
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Posted -
2002/9/19 上午 10:15:08
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我指出的種種,只是'可能性'而已,當然,不能以'必勝'的態度來攪信仰的事 - 信仰的核心也不就是'明知山有虎偏向虎山行'?
首先的準備,是'輸得起'。在這當中,還有許多可作的事,輸得少就是嬴得多,那有100%上天堂的事哩!
昨晚在禮節師課程新學年開課日有幸見到'靚仔'兄,不知為何神父在開始時卻沒有介紹他,是否他是傍聽的?
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靚仔
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Posted -
2002/9/19 下午 04:43:03
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Why when I amended the words, it change it to GB code?
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靚仔
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Posted -
2002/9/19 下午 04:46:00
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我還未有空和神父商討我在課程中的角色, 所以身份有些"曖昧",但原則上我是來"學嘢"的, 但又不是以學員的身份, 而是我禮儀碩士課程的牧民實習的一部份. 就如他突然間叫我說幾句, 但又無介紹我是誰, 可能學員們會覺得有些怪, 唔知我係"乜水".
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Cecil
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Posted -
2002/9/19 下午 05:04:45
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你是'名人'來的,不認識你是'好打有限'(一笑而已)。似乎有很多人對禮儀有興趣,很多新學員也不見的是正在擔任禮儀服務的。
為何在這兒提到這禮儀課程 - 跟lay ministry也大有干係的。
鄙人是'自發'上課,原因是覺得會有機會認識到青少年禮儀服務員們,更加方便介紹聖召這樣'難攪'的課題(我超了齡,沒機會去世青了,you ｓｅｅ）．可是，所見的，亞嬸呀姐們真多著哩！
不知她們當中有多少是由本堂們推薦？
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Josemaria
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Posted -
2002/9/19 下午 05:17:32
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While I have never had the 'guts' to be an altar server in my life, I agree that lay service in liturgical matters is one of the areas where the laity come into direct contact with the priests and deacons.
I remember that Cecil once 'complaint' to me that co-operation with the p.p. in liturgical matters proved to be difficult while she was at HV.
If in matters like these co-operation failed, where else could there be co-operation between the pastor and the flock?
Here does seem to lie an area of foundamental importance - whether lay ministry could ever succeed in a given parish.
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Cecil
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Posted -
2002/9/19 下午 05:36:57
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依我看，能成功否很視乎牧者的心態 － 他對這名服務員信任嗎？再者，他們有默契嗎？
如果連起碼的信任也欠奉，這ｌａｙ ｍｉｎｉｓｔｒｙ就必泡湯無疑了。因為禮儀服務是牧者跟服務員直接合作的「工作」，是成功與否的直接溫度計。
課程我是即管報讀了，但對禮儀服務失敗的經驗，卻還未能忘記。會否「一朝被蛇晈十年怕草繩」，還看日後哩。
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steve
管理人員
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Posted -
2003/1/4 下午 10:47:22
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Josemaria, why do you need 'guts" to be an altar server? I thought it is calling that you need? Just curious.....
I used to think those who serve at the altar will naturally end up in the seminary and become a priest. But it seems that this is not the case nowadays.
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Josemaria
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Posted -
2003/1/7 下午 12:39:26
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Altar servers nowadays are not confined to male faithfuls. In the old days, only the 'good boys' become altar boys. Shy ones (like me) and naughty ones stand a much lessor chance.
Nowadays, it is not easy to find alter 'boys', so perhaps naughtiness and shyness are no longer impediments.
Liturgical service - a very good beginning for vocation. Cissie had been to the Altar Servers' Association's recent patron saint feast day, and reported that there are almost more gals than boys in the Association (or at least more of those that turned up that day were girls).
I also learned from Cissie that the Diocese Liturgical Commission is doing a fine job these years in training up lay faithfuls in liturgical matters. They, however, require students' active participation in parish liturgical matters, and not all participants are able to do this, as far as I am aware. Cissie, for example, was unable to serve back at St. Margaret's parish owing to the decision of their PP back in July last year.
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靚仔
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Posted -
2003/1/7 下午 03:14:30
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nowaday, many boys don't see serving the altar as an honour. they feel bored, and they act what they feel also.
about the traning of the faithful, the best of course is they can use it at their parish. if not, they may see it as a perparation for future ministry.
in addition, one of the requirment of the course is the recommendation of the parish priest, so "by principle", they should have a good "standing" in the parish.
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Cecil
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Posted -
2003/1/7 下午 06:04:38
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這樣說,我可能是打了茅波 - 我找了教區其他善會的神師推薦我上課 - 當然,如果這神師的堂區有用人的需要,我一定不會托手踭,但神師的堂區嘛,是在九龍的,好在只是尖沙嘴,也不算遠。
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歸一
管理人員
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Posted -
2003/2/3 上午 09:37:38
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我會從制度來看教友牧職的問題。
且不談別的神學培育機構，單就宗教學部而言，我們這一屆是第十屆，歷屆畢業人數最少都有七個，一般是十多二十位，換言之，十年培育的人最少都有150名，而再強調一次，這只是宗教學部而已。
香港教區的教友人數，帳面上是廿四萬，如果你計算堂區星期日彌撒的數目，就會知道，真的教友不會超過十萬。
好了，150個神學生對十萬教友，每100個教友，可以配得1.5個神學生，比例之高，簡直嚇死人。
所以，根本不存在培育不足的情況。
問題在於，這些經過培育的人，教區完全沒有有系統的採納，沒有把他們納入建制之內。
正如湯主教在過去幾年的講話中，不止一次提出，好希望在宗教學部的學生中，可以出到神父或修女。我想，為教區高層而言，學部的平信徒的可用性其實好低，如果我們不能成為神職，在教區內可以做的好少好少。
如果高層不改變這種想法，牧職根本不可行。或者說，待神父死得七七八八(今天本港教區神父的平均年齡是六十五，不用等好耐)，真的沒有人手，就"自然"會改變。問題，我們是否要這麼被動地等待，反而忽略了今天就可以做得更好的發展呢？
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Cecil
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Posted -
2003/2/3 下午 04:10:49
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Very true, it does seem to me to be an awful waste, especially now that religious people - priests, sisters, are getting more and more scarse. Nearly all the 'front line' - the different parishes - lack 'trained' personnel. Some times I hope sincerely that 'trained' people, be they religious or lay, should be deployed to serve on matters like liturgy and spirituality, leaving general administration to another set of people - the trained lay administrators.
More often than not, we have a good priest - nice personality, good training, good integrity, but alas, not a good administrator at all (that isn't his fault). Some times we have a good adminsitrator is the P.P. - very good P.R., very suave ways in handling the parishioners...and alas, not very observant on disciplinary matters like clean and fair administration, good spiritual development of parishioners...
Different types of trees do not all grow on the same bushes.
The Diocese nowadays, as far as I can see, require a new set of diocesan administration technique. This requires the 'trained' lay faithful to work hand in hand with the clergy and the religious in parish work. An objective system should be quickly implemented to cope with the fast drop out of our religious people - yearly, far more number of priests and nuns return home to our Father than the number of newly ordained ones.
Of course, deacons are a good supplement, too, but these are again limited in sex to men. Many women lay faithfuls, well-trained theologians with postgraduate overseas degrees, are working in other lay organisations, filling high posts, of course. They, however, aren't active in Parish work any more.
And last but not the least, at present, in many large parishes, the set-ups are still sadly out of date, with a lot of what Brother Handsome calls, parish politics among lay faithfuls. The trained personnels are still being 'put away' at arm's length for various different reasons. Even the P.P.s couldn't set things right, alas. And the parishes are the front line places into which people come to join God's big family.
The 'partnership ministry' between parish religious and laities will be a foremost issue to be tackled at the diocesan level in the coming years.
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Cecil
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Posted -
2003/10/25 上午 10:55:44
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對於早前jedi君提出的這個lay ministry問題,再印證堂區的一些新現況,我以下的補充看法:
教友在堂區擔大祺的,一般而言是由神父approve加上議會通過(視乎堂區民主程度).
一般而言神父會選一些肯服務的教友,但問題是 - 願意服務是先決條件,卻不是唯一或主要條件.
主要條件,其實是該候選人的信仰程度 - (1)札根夠深嗎?(2)動機正確嗎?
這兩項才是最主要的考慮.好像有些人,回善會另有目的,為生意,為權力,為追女仔,等等,如果過了火位,對團體的損害好很大.
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去非
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Posted -
2003/10/25 下午 12:30:48
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在這裡提到的"parish politics"其實是老問題。以我有限的經驗是﹐類似的問題一直是存在的﹐不論是在堂區的善會､神長當中或教友自己的團體當中。有教友不再出來服務是因為被這些政治折磨透了﹐覺得很累。
Office politics出現在以愛為號召的教會當中﹐而且情況是這樣的嚴重﹐這在某程度上是很諷刺的。我覺得解決的關鍵仍在出來服務的教友本身﹐掌要職者必須明白服務的本質及誠心出來服務﹐那是解決紛爭及"政治問題"的qualities。
我曾目睹過一個信仰團體解決種種personal conflicts及所謂"政治問題"的經過。說到底﹐所依仗的也是每人真正明白他們在為誰服務以及那一份誠心及愛。
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牛佬
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Posted -
2006/6/18 上午 11:25:46
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我看教友牧職的基礎還在於教友的信仰培育，我會把信仰培育分三層：
1 為未領洗者的信仰培育
2 為已領洗者的信仰深化
3 為投身教友牧職的信仰再深化
就我所觀察，第二層必須更有策略去進行，如組織有系統的深化課程如聖經、禮儀、教理等，也可教導教友研讀聖經、分享及信仰生活反省等，對象可以是有動機的教友如青年、成年教友等，他們在深化信仰後，也更投入教會堂區服務及明白服務背後的意義；
第三層可以針對有志投身教友牧職的教友作再深化培育。
只有不斷進行第二層及第三層培育，才能帶動整個教會堂區在教友信仰上的札根，造成正面循環的帶動作用。
讓聖神的臨在引領我們推動一個充滿生機、充滿活力動力，彼此同行，同為主僕的教會。
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牛佬
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Posted -
2006/6/24 下午 07:34:10
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我看教區也應匯聚各路人馬草擬一份教友牧職與信仰培育與深化諮詢文件，再進一步探討教友角色及未來十年的挑戰策略，以帶動及深化教友對牧職的配合參與，與神職的同行合作，也掀起整個教會的共融、同行、合作、人靈得救、為主作證、共建天國、將信仰落實實踐於生活中。藉祈禱、聖事、共融、反省去讓聖神引領。
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